Multiscale + Extended Rage Floyd Roses?

Discussion in 'Extended Range Guitars' started by tabqwerty, Apr 16, 2017.

  1. tabqwerty

    tabqwerty SS.org Regular

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    I know Kahler makes these, but their bridges can't flutter and they look ugly IMO. This Ormsby with 8 strings and a Floyd Rose is my dream guitar (that I can actually afford!):

    [​IMG]
     
  2. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    If you keep the fan small enough and shift the perpendicular fret towards the bridge, you can probably get away with a FR, or any trem really, except you'll start defeating the purpose of both the different scales and sweep of the frets.

    See Strandberg.
     
  3. tabqwerty

    tabqwerty SS.org Regular

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    What?
     
  4. WinterLily

    WinterLily SS.org Regular

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    T4M tremolo? not sure if it merts your criteria but it can be fanned
     
  5. A-Branger

    A-Branger SS.org Regular

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    basically making the bridge the parallel fret, so you can use a regular floyd. Just like those new prototypes Ormsby are doing. But then you are limited to a small fan of 1" difference in scales.

    Strandberg do floating bridges for their multiscales but not sure on the why the have the parallel fret at the nut, which makes their scale differences only a 0.5" . If they had shifted their parallel fret to the 9th fret and keep the same angle at their current bridge they could have had a bigger multiscale.

    Problem with a traditional Floyd is that the pivot point is in front of the strings saddles. On a multiscale bridge with the big fan like Ormsby is doing this becomes a problem. Your pivot point cant be at the lower strings, so it has to be at the high strings. This becomes an issue with the lower strings, as the more separation between the string saddle and the pivot point, the wider the range of up/down movements of the string has while using the tremolo. In other words, it would be like your string action would go up and down(even clashing with the fretboard). Plus the square design would get in the way of the bridge pickup

    The way the Strandberg tremolo bridge fixes this is by shifting the pivot point to a more in between position between the high and low strings, so their range of movement becomes less. IF you see the pic of one, the ball bearing is pretty much right next to the high string. Way closer to what a traditional knife edge of a Floyd is. Plus Stranberg uses a smaller fan at the bridge and non-angled pickups, these specs help too.

    Only solution for a big fan bridge like Ormsby, would be to do something similar to what Strandberg is doing, by using ball bearing pivot points, so these can be located on the outside of the bridge and be positioned in a more central location between the high and low strings(this would now require to have a cavity under the front of the bridge for it to be able to move), unless you put the pivot point right under the highest string. But something traditional like a FLoyd with a knife edge at the front of the bridge would never work at this extreme angle. Unless you go with something like a Bigsby, were the intonation bridge is locked and you wind/un-wind the string lenght behind.
     
  6. tabqwerty

    tabqwerty SS.org Regular

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    What?


    I guess I need visual examples.
     
  7. jemfloral

    jemfloral SS.org Regular

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    A-Branger just did a great job explaining why its difficult to get a floyd to work on a guitar like the one you originally posted. Just read through it slowly and figure it out piece by piece. Basically, he says that because the pivot point on a tremolo is a perpendicular line at the front of the bridge, but the saddles sit further and further away from it (from high to low strings), as you move the tremolo up and down the impact on each saddle becomes greater.

    Think of a dive-bomb motion on the tremolo. If you have the first string saddle sitting right at the pivot point, then it doesn't move that first saddle too high away from the body of the guitar. However, in the same motion, because the lowest saddle is much further from the pivot "line" it will get lifted away from the guitar body MUCH further. The opposite effect would be had for a pull-up.

    If you still don't get it try using a business card as a tremolo baseplate, and put one dot on the corner closest to the pivot side, and one dot on the opposite corner away from the pivot. Now hold the pivot on a table and lift the other edge to simulate a dive-bomb. Notice how much higher the non-pivot side gets? That's your low string action getting insanely high.
     
  8. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    The guitar you posted would need a custom machined FR trem in order to work at all. This is nearly impossible to do legally and effectively.

    The only other option, as Max said, and everyone else is explaining very well, is that you would have to use a standard FR trem with no fan at the bridge. You could still slant the nut back and have the frets follow.

    That option would be less ergonomic than a properly engineered multiscale, unless you took it easy on the span.

    Take a look at this example:

    [​IMG]

    The bridge is perpendicular to the strings, but the guitar is still multiscale. You could put a FR trem on this guitar. The problem is that there isn't much of a difference in scale length between the high and low strings as a result.
     
  9. tabqwerty

    tabqwerty SS.org Regular

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    Why does it matter if its action is high during a dive-bomb? It'll revert back to normal right after.
     
  10. A-Branger

    A-Branger SS.org Regular

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    maybe the action no so much. But maybe the sensitivity of the pitch. A little pressure while palm mutting wont do much on a regular floyd, but on a low string multiscale with a huge separation to the pivot point it will as it would require less movement to achieve same pitch change

    I think?... as also have to take into account the extra scale lenght of the string, so the longer the string the more you have to push it. Like is eassier to get to pitch while bending a short scale guitar vs a long scale one

    maybe thats why the multiscale tremolo of Kraler works?


    plus resting your hand on the low string bridge to palm mute would put ore pressure on the ssitem if the knife edge is at the high string location, so you would be pulling up the bridge far easier. And also the main problem of the sistem being on the way of the bridge pickup
     
  11. diagrammatiks

    diagrammatiks SS.org Regular

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    man i really want a marconi...but their online builder breaks me.
     
  12. dpm

    dpm Oni Guitars Contributor

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    It's entirely possible to make a fanned trem with the pivot points running at the bridge angle. There's a tiny amount of lateral travel relative to the routed cavity but it according to what I drew up a few years back it shouldn't be problematic. The main problem is finding someone to make a quality baseplate and paying for it
     
  13. Winspear

    Winspear Tom Winspear Vendor

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    I was thinking this exactly, but can't get it right in my head. Will try modelling it soon.
    I have this T4M fanned tremolo here in my hands disassembled and was considering an experiment having a duplicate baseplate made with the bass knife edge moved back.

    I've already attempted to lessen the effects discussed here by having the high E saddle overhanging the base plate, slightly more extremely than shown.
    [​IMG]
    Is that all it takes? Or do the knife edges need to be at an angle? (I'd imagine not as they are a single point contact on a cylinder, not a hinge).
    Slightly different elevations, I'd assume
    Or is it really as simple as moving the bass knife edge back to where that plastic plug is for example.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017
  14. diagrammatiks

    diagrammatiks SS.org Regular

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    tom did you have the t4m installed in something before you took it apart? how is it?
     
  15. Winspear

    Winspear Tom Winspear Vendor

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    Also wanted to say I think the T4M trem is the best option for this at the moment because whilst the low strings might be further away and have a lot of pitch fluctuation, I would rather that than the Kahler which has the treble strings much further forward so would have much less pitch control over them.
    I'm not entirely sure of the mechanical design of the Kahler and where the rotational point is, but I feel safe in assuming it's quite a way behind the treble saddles? Maybe somebody can correct that.

    No I don't have the T4M installed yet, I am designing a build around it.
    It basically seems exactly like a Floyd to me, studying it. Very impressed with the design and quality.
     
  16. dpm

    dpm Oni Guitars Contributor

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    It has been a while since I looked at it. I reckon simply moving the knife edge back is the way to go because the tension pulls along that plane. The way I thought of going about it is to use Schaller parts including their replaceable knife edge inserts. That way you're not dealing with hardening processes and could cut just the base from solid brass or aluminium. The locking nut then becomes the big machining project :ugh:
     
  17. A-Branger

    A-Branger SS.org Regular

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    that looks pretty cool. For some reason I didnt though of putting actualy knife edges on the sides instead of the ball bearings on the Standberg bridges.

    I would say the location is great in there. Take a look at a floyd and you would see the distance between the intonation saddle and the knife edge is pretty similar to the bass side in this bridge.

    The only thing I just though could be an issue for this bridge is about the BE strings (I think), since those seem to be on the same axis for the pivot point, they wont have much movement. Supposing one of them are exactly on the same point as the knife edge rotation point, then the only movement they would experience would be due to the difference in height between them and the pivot point. So although theres a little difference to make some movement, would it be enough to have workable pitch changes for tremolo use?, like could it be enouhg to get 1 tone pitch without extreme tremolo dives/pulls?
     
  18. Lemons

    Lemons SS.org Regular

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    I got to spend some time on a guitar equipped with the T4M multiscale headless trem. It seemed like a good quality piece, I cant remember specifically the trem range on the higher strings but I don't think it was a problem, that being said I'm not one for heavy trem action anyway.
     
  19. UnstableinLINY

    UnstableinLINY SS.org Regular

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