modeling

Discussion in 'Gear & Equipment' started by dmchannelitaly, May 16, 2018 at 2:57 AM.

  1. dmchannelitaly

    dmchannelitaly Music Composer

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    Hi 7string users!

    I'm an amp & mic guy, but recently I've had the opportunity of trying out the Helix LT.. What a beast! From the first POD, technology has made a huge leap forward, and honestly, if I had to start from scratch again with no gear, the modeling options would be really tempting..

    What are you thoughts about that? Do you still use amps-cabs-mics, or modeling, hybrid.. let me know..
     
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  2. LeftOurEyes

    LeftOurEyes SS.org Regular

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    I think both are great and have their place.

    Tube amps I think are still the best personally, but they are expensive, can be loud and can come with a lot of limitations depending on the model. Recording can be difficult for a whole range of issues. Getting the same mic position can be a pain as well vs the consistency of a modeler.

    Modelers are awesome and really convenient but I feel like I need to switch how I hook them up based on if Im recording or jamming.

    For recording they work great, but to me they feel a little weird because you are modeling the whole signal including the mic and not hearing the sound from a cab. This works fine and sounds good, but I always feel like Im loosing a little "feel" compared to playing an amp through a cab.

    If I am just jamming then I'll play a modeler through a power amp (or effects loop of an amp) then a cab like normal, it feels really good like a normal tube amp would and sounds good to my ears as well.

    Ideally if I was in a band, I would use a Helix, Kemper, Axe or whatever, then go through a tube power amp and a cab onstage, while also running direct to FOH.
     
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  3. Lax

    Lax SS.org Regular

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    Bought only one tube amp in my life, expensive, heavy, fragile in some ways, not programmable, mic'ing issues, bedroom use, no silent rehearsal, no night recording...

    Shifted to the axefx2xl+ in 2015, life changer, for bedroom+recording+night+silent rehearsing it's unbeatable.
    If you're ok with plugging directly to PA systems live, there is no question for me :)
     
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  4. mnemonic

    mnemonic Custom User Title

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    It’s an excellent time to be a guitarist, the options out there are great, modelling has come a long way and even the cheap modelers can sound pretty good.

    I’ve been using modeling for the majority of my time playing guitar, I dabbled a bit with tube amps in high school and college but the majority of the time I used a Line 6 POD.

    I went full modeling all the time with an Axe FX II back in 2014 or something, but recently my situation is such that I have a spare room, spare cash, and I don’t have any noise constraints, so I bought a couple of tube amps.

    It’s my opinion that tube amps still sound better and are easier to use, but they do come with plenty of drawbacks (size, weight, upkeep costs, potentially reliability, less versatile than a modeler...) at the end of the day there is always a compromise somewhere so it’s just deciding where you’re willing to make that compromise.

    I still use my Axe FX regularly, and I think owning tube amps to a/b with has also made it easier to dial in good tones with the axe fx. When I fall into the rabbit hole of tweaking, and I end up with some over-processed patch, just comparing it to one of my real amps easily shows that I should just delete it, start over, and keep things simple. That tends to sound best.
     
  5. dmchannelitaly

    dmchannelitaly Music Composer

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    you got the point, I usually use a plug-in or modeler for scratch guitars, etc. But when it comes to the final recording, I use real amps. However, sometimes for "creative" (weird) stuff and last minute overdub, are incredible because I don't own lots of guitar pedals
     
  6. dmchannelitaly

    dmchannelitaly Music Composer

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    I've an home studio too.. I know how it feels when it's cluttered :)
     
  7. dmchannelitaly

    dmchannelitaly Music Composer

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    You're smart! Our ears can be easily fooled
     
  8. JSanta

    JSanta SS.org Regular

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    I moved to using a Helix LT because as much as I love good tube amps, I love that I have so many tones available to me. I have times where I want a crazy old David Gilmour Echoplex and fuzz tone, or I want a fully driven Mark IV. It's nice that I can get really good tones without needing to own several different amps.

    That being said, as I've gotten older, I have found a few amp tones that I believe work for me, and I could see myself moving to something like a Victory Sheriff 22 and a few pedals, or using my Helix strictly for effects. A buddy of mine grabbed one of those 7 watt Fender Bassbreakers, and it just does something that the Helix doesn't grab perfectly. The Helix is a fantastic tool, and I think it gets you 99% of the way there. If I was going to play a show, I would have no issue using that and a powered cab or straight into the PA. It's a wonderful and reliable tool.
     
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  9. dmchannelitaly

    dmchannelitaly Music Composer

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    Fantastic, thanks for sharing your experience! :cheers:
     
  10. laxu

    laxu SS.org Regular

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    I jumped ship from a Diezel Einstein combo and an Egnater Tourmaster 100 head + 2x12 cab nearly 10 years ago with the Axe-Fx Standard and still only use an Axe-Fx 2. I've tried to simplify because the Axe-Fx is a bit of a pain to adjust but it's hard to fault when you consider how much you get in one box and how good it sounds.

    I've realized that I don't need that many sounds on tap but at the same time I have a hard time finding a single amp that can cover my needs of a good Fender style clean and Marshall overdrive without compromises in either. I don't want another multi-amp setup and I would have to put down some serious money to get a rig that can compete with my Axe-Fx AND can sound great at any volume. That's before considering all the pedals I would want.

    I'll probably pick up the Line6 Powercab so I can have something that doesn't sound like a recording when using cab sims.
     
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  11. LiveOVErdrive

    LiveOVErdrive CNC hack

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    For me, the preferred tech is very much an emotional choice rather than a practical one. If I was in a 90s metal-funk-fusion band I'd want my guitar and a Mesa amp and maybe a pedal. If I was in a modern prog/death band I'd want to plug the whole band into a MacBook and program all our effect changes to a click track and play like a robot. Not out of practicality in either case, but rather just because it "feels right".

    But I don't ever play out or record, so what do I know? :)

    Recently I've been thinking about trying to write some guitar modeling software with PD and run it on a raspberry pi wrapped inside an amp chassis with a 100w power amp built in.
     
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  12. GunpointMetal

    GunpointMetal SS.org Regular

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    Modeling all the way for me. I haven't owned a "real" amp (I don't think the Crate PowerBlock counts) in probably 10-12 years and haven't run a "real" guitar cab on stage in 5-6. Guitar->Helix->Powered Wedge/FOH. No mics, no inexperienced "engineers" mic'ing my cab poorly, no more dealing with how a guitar cab sounds different in EVERY ROOM, no more trips to GC to try out 30 things when I want a different effect in my signal chain, my IEM set-up sounds great, and my whole rig weighs about as much as 4x12. Sometimes I do miss the immediacy of a live cab, but then I remember all the other headaches I'm avoiding and I don't miss it anymore. Just for shits a giggles a year or so ago I figured out how much it would cost to buy all the hardware versions of the various FX and amps I use in my 5-6 main live presets...stopped counting somewhere around $8k.....
     
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  13. Elric

    Elric SS.org Regular

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    Modeling is great. My amps are getting used less and less use over the last five years or so. I really only fire them up for the whole user experience of running an amp (i.e. novelty/nostalgia) and just to cross check my modeling tone to make sure I haven't gone tone deaf and my modeling tone really is awesome as I thought (it is).

    Theres a place for both but for me, really the amps are mostly just luxuries. The modeling is what gets it done day in and out. I could easily get rid of all my traditional amps and not miss them even a little bit.

    The pi has nowhere near the horsepower or I/O to run any kind of realtime amp modeling software. It will someday but we are not that far into the future yet. Mac Mini or a small intel PC? Absolutely.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018 at 5:29 PM
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  14. ElRay

    ElRay Mostly Harmless

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    There are some "better than LoFi" Arduino/Pi-based pedals out there, but that's the best I've seen.
     
  15. LiveOVErdrive

    LiveOVErdrive CNC hack

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    Good to know. I'll have to research hardware options. There's got to be some kind of cheap-ish board out there with decent dsp capabilities. A barebones pc might be the way to go.
     
  16. Shask

    Shask SS.org Regular

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    That is how I am. My Boss Katana and Axe-FX II gets WAY more use than my Recto, or Marshall clone tube amps. Sometimes I will crank them up, but most of my playing is in short, 30 minute bursts, so it is much easier to just flip on one of the modelers, which both pretty much sound and feel excellent.

    I also tend to run them through poweramps and guitar cabs. I am not a fan of the monitor/headphone/IR direct sound. Everything sounds and feels all weird like that, but through cabs, they feel much more like actual amps.
     
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  17. Lemonbaby

    Lemonbaby SS.org Regular

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    What's "PD"?
     
  18. LiveOVErdrive

    LiveOVErdrive CNC hack

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    Basically a clone of max msp, but open source. I actually meant to say supercollider, which is some sort of audio processing framework that might get the job done.

    First step is to try this stuff out on my pc and see what I can create. I've not done a lot of dsp programming so it would be a learning process.

    Anyway I didn't mean to derail the thread :)
     
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  19. dmchannelitaly

    dmchannelitaly Music Composer

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    So true.. I remember when I was using a 5150.. one of the best distortion channel ever.. but, the clean channel.. damn.. :D
    :eek:
    Also.. I don't play exclusively metal, so carrying that beast on a jam session.. you get the idea :D
    :D
     
  20. dmchannelitaly

    dmchannelitaly Music Composer

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    And if something goes wrong.. you can't play the show!hahah jokes apart, raspberry modeling sounds interesting!!
     

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