Martial Arts

Discussion in 'Lifestyle, Health, Fitness & Food' started by bostjan, Jun 9, 2006.

  1. Toshiro

    Toshiro .... Contributor

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    You're not talking about the temper line(Hamon), right? Because they try to simulate it with acid etching now-a-days. You can still have a full temper-line on an un-folded steel blade, it just won't have the pattern in the overall steel that folded blade has(visibly at least, there's major other differences of course). Never heard of anyone trying to simulate the grain pattern of a folded steel blade on some wall-hanger, that would be interesting. :)

    Ugh, must sleep..... :lol:
     
  2. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    :lol: No shit, dude, I think his lexicon alone ID's him as someone whom one should not consider a reputable source. :lol:
     
  3. Naren

    Naren OldschoolGhettostyle

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    Yeah, some of them have tried to imitate it, but, as you can guess, it isn't very realistic looking.

    But, yeah... good stuff.
     
  4. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    Well, ninjas may have used swords to kill people, but they were certainly more into using explosives (as ninjas were some of the first people to use them, mainly as a distraction or psychological weapon, though) and improvised weapons with special purposes.

    All I said was that ninjas didn't have special ninja swords, as in swords that were only available to ninjas, as many people fantasize about. If you think i'm being obtuse and contrary for stating so, then I say you must either be ignoring everything I've been saying so far or something.

    Keep in mind that ninjas were not rich people, they were mercenaries and outlaws. Their purpose was not for fighting, but for assasinations and espionage, as I'm sure you agree.

    The sword is a noble weapon, assosiated with battle, not with murder (not saying people don't murder each other with swords). For a murder weapon, a throwing knife, a poison dart, a dagger, or an iron pipe works just as well as a sword.

    The two of us could go on splitting hairs for eons, but I stand by my original statement, and I'm not really disagreeing with you, only standing by what I said in the first place.

    Anyway, I used to work with a guy who was apparently a ninja. I say that because no one ever saw him, yet he still got a paycheck every two weeks for being there. :lol:
     
  5. Naren

    Naren OldschoolGhettostyle

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    Although ninjas did use explosives, I doubt they would use something so loud and attention-grabbing in an assassination. For escaping when they were trapped, definitely.

    I disagree that ninjas were mercenaries and outlaws. They were not mercenaries because they were not hired by this clan and then this clan and then this clan. Generally, during the life of one ninja, they would work for one daimyo (I'll grant that through one ninja school's history, they might work for several different daimyo, families, or clans). I would say they weren't outlaws because no one knew who was a ninja and who wasn't. Nobody talked to normal people AS ninjas (wearing ninja clothes or carrying ninja equipment in the open). They would pretend to be a normal person and then talk to someone.

    Although samurai and normal Japanese soldiers believed in honor, the sword was not necessarily considered a "noble weapon." After guns were introduced to Japan, however, guns were considered an "unhonorable weapon" because they took no skill to use and could instantly kill someone who had never lost a battle before. What I'm trying to say, I guess, is that ninjas used anything available to kill someone. If you go back to the beginnings of ninjas in the Heian period, they'd use garden tools and small everyday items to kill their opponents. Like spies should be, ninjas were resourceful. But not honorable. If ninja had been an official group of people in the town with a building of their own, they would have been scorned and looked down upon as dishonorable.

    I think the misconception of ninja-to/ninja-ken being used ONLY by ninjas is due to the fact that they were the main people to use them. I think that that type of blade was just the preference of most ninjas as a tool used for gaining access into fortresses, etc. As I mentioned, there were various other straight blades in Japan, as well, other than the ninja-to.

    But, yes, I agree with most of what you were saying. While soldiers and samurai were there for fighting, ninja were not. They were there for espionage and assassination.

    So, I guess we weren't really arguing over much, anyway. :cool:
     
  6. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    Exactly :D
     
  7. Naren

    Naren OldschoolGhettostyle

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    Indeedy do. ;)
     
  8. Toshiro

    Toshiro .... Contributor

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    Is the Koga-Iga thing fiction, or myth, or based loosley on fact? I've always wondered how much of that is folk-tale and how much is anime cliche.
     
  9. Naren

    Naren OldschoolGhettostyle

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    That's 100% true. Not loosely based on fact at all. I mean, a specific animation itself may be mostly or completely lies, but Koga and Iga are the two most famous ninja schools that fought amongst each other and are oftentimes considered the very first ninjutsu schools (originating around 1000 AD). Obviously they didn't have supernatural powers just like bears and rabbits can't talk like in a Disney movie or how getting hit with a bomb would kill you in real life, but in Ranma they're perfectly fine a few seconds later.

    The most famous ninja in history, Hattori Hanzou, was a member of the Iga school (from Iga prefecture, where modern day Mie prefecture is). Iga prefecture and Koga (Kouga) prefecture are considered the birthplaces of ninjutsu. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iga_Province

    There was this one Japanimation I saw 6-7 years ago that was all about Koga and Iga ninja that had a lot of history thrown into it, but the story was really ridiculous, about Tokugawa trying to open some portal and bring demons into our dimension to turn Earth into a living Hell. All the ninjas in that animation had supernatural powers.

    We know a lot about the legendary swordsman Minamoto Musashi (because he wrote several books, a journal, etc. and because of what others wrote about him), but there are a lot of Japanese animations and comics about him that are completely ridiculous with him doing unbelievable things. The two most amazing things Minamoto historically did (although people could say these are lies, I guess) were: 1. Killing like 130 soldiers all by himself (as in Samurai I, I believe. It might have been Samurai II) and 2. Beating a swordsmaster with a wooden sword he had made out of a raft. Those might sound kind of unbelievable as well, but he is generally considered the most skilled swordsman in Japan's history.

    Just like that, Koga and Iga are 100% real, but depending on the animation, the information about them might be mostly fabricated.

    An English site for Mie prefecture, talking about tourism and Iga ninja: http://www.kankomie.or.jp/kanko/discover/iga.html
    The Iga-ryu Ninja Museum (on the same page): http://www.kankomie.or.jp/kanko/discover/iga.html (I've heard this place has lots of artifacts and true info on the Iga ninjas, but, as you can see in the pic, the female guide wears kind of silly pink ninja clothes.
     
  10. Toshiro

    Toshiro .... Contributor

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    :lol: That sounds lik Samurai Deeper Kyo, except it was Oda Nobunaga. Nothing like an Edo-peroid anime that ends with a battle on Tokyo Tower. :lol:

    It's like talking to people who think Kenshin's sakaba-to would be a great idea... Why have an edge at all? At that point a well forged Iai-to would be better, realitically. Nevermind that forging a sword with a reverse curve would make most people's head explode from the task.

    Man, they've had Musashi fighting Amakusa Shiro in anime and in the Jubei Yagyu movies as well. Damn silly stuff, but fun to watch. Musashi died of old age, IIRC, which was a serious feat in those days with that lifestyle. The Samurai movie 3 had the battle on the island with the carved wooden sword, Mifune putting in a killer performance, IMO.
     
  11. Naren

    Naren OldschoolGhettostyle

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    It wasn't Samurai Deeper Kyo (never heard of that one). I forget what it was called, but there were no samurai in the movie. Yeah, in this one it was Oda Nobunaga as well (I was thinking Tokugawa Ieyasu for some reason). I don't know what animation people have against Nobunaga where they think he was some occultic dude trying to bring demons into the world. How could that movie have been Edo-period and end on Tokyo Tower? Did they get sent into the future for some bizarre reason? The one I'm thinking of was sengoku-jidai (warring states period) and it ended at Nobunaga's secret fortress in a forest somewhere.

    Yeah, it would be really idiotic to make a real sakabatou. Even the Wikipedia article on Sakabatou http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/逆刃刀 is completely about Rurouni Kenshin. The reason is that there has never been one in existence before (defeats the entire purpose of the weapon).

    Toshirou Mifune was a pretty cool actor. I particularly liked his roles in Kurosawa films like Seven Samurai (got that one on DVD. Classic) and The Hidden Fortress. But, in animations (and some games), they have him doing some absolutely ridiculous stuff.
     
  12. Toshiro

    Toshiro .... Contributor

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    There's all sorts of stupid shit in SDKyo, and very little samurai. Time travel, body-snatching demon/monsters, a guy split into different personaliies, some pessimistic guy from the future, etc. :lol: I keep thinking of that anime Ninja Cadets, damn that was silly, but funny too. Anyway, I don't watch that stuff for it's realism, I want the fantasy aspect. US TV is too focused on reality lately, and I couldn't give a shit.

    Only trouble is there are people out there who think this shit is do-able, like they're gonna go to a dojo and learn Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu or some other anime 'style', I bet. :wallbash: :lol:
     
  13. Naren

    Naren OldschoolGhettostyle

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    Yeah, I saw Ninja Cadets too. It was okay.

    I watch animation for the same reason I watch normal movies: to be entertained. It could be based on reality or be completely nonsensical and ridiculous and I wouldn't care. Although I do like realistic movies and stuff, I can't stand reality TV. I watch movies to escape from reality. If I wanted to watch something like on the Real World, I'd go to the "ghetto mall" and watch someone duke it out.

    Although I tend to have a pretty nerdy job, almost none of the people I work with look like nerds and none of them are the naive 12-year-old uneducated idiots who think that things in animation and games are real. Geez. In fact, the whole historical part of Rurouni Kenshin itself isn't even correct. That was blown waaaay out of proportion, but I don't think it's that the author didn't know. I think he vastly changed history to make the story more interesting (at least from his perspective).

    To be honest, I was suprised that you COULD learn Iadou in the US.
     
  14. Toshiro

    Toshiro .... Contributor

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    Eh, I like the silly stuff every so often, since I'm usually pretty damn cynical and pessimisic in real life. :lol:

    I found some of the RK storyline interesting, from a purely fictional aspect. It told a story with som basis, without going into some uber-silly setting. The only thing I didn't care for about the whole series was the change in character designs for the OAVs, I much prefer the "early 90's" era artwork in the TV show and movie.

    The Iaido we were messing with was the Eishin-Ryu IIRC. It's actually pretty well known over here from what I understand. I found a book done by the grandmaster for it at a Barnes and Noble a few years ago, so that's pretty 'common'. Was funny seeing pics of stuff you used to practice everyday, though.

    Of course, he moved away, and I ended up butchering the style with my own silliness as a punk kid(I was like 20 at the time), so much of what I remember might be modified a bit from the true kata. Still, I was always better at swinging the thing the right way than anything else. :lol: Pretty pathetic, and I'm way out of shape now I bet.
     
  15. Naren

    Naren OldschoolGhettostyle

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    I liked Rurouni Kenshin when I first read it (and then watched it), but I got bored of it very very soon. There are a few comics and animations that are incredibly popular that I think are just mind-numbingly boring. One of those was Fullmetal Alchemist, which I just randomly picked up in a comic store (before anyone had heard of it in the US). It said "Very popular! Being made into a Fuji TV animation!" (I think it was Fuji) and I was like "Oh, this looks interesting." So I bought it, read through the whole thing that day and thought, "That was boring... That was REALLY boring." And the next day I sold it to a used comic store nearby and bought a different comic series that I found very interesting. That's something I did quite often, buying comics that I had never heard of before just because they looked interesting. More often then not they were interesting, but I ran into a lot of boring ones too.

    I generally like Japanimation and comics that make fun of the genre itself. Those amuse my quite a bit. But I also like the really pessimistic (or dark) animations/comics too. One of my favorite genres is the 1980s ultra-violent gore fest comics and animations like Akira and Hokuto no ken. Those are pretty awesome. A good combination of the two are dark humor comics, assuming the storyline is interesting and the humor is actually funny.

    It's interesting to note that, although the art of drawing the Japanese longsword is "Iai," if you add "dou," it is "Iadou" and not "Iaidou." Interesting linguistic trivia for ya. Always been interested in kendou, kenjutsu, and iadou, but never had the chance to do it. Too late now, anyway.
     
  16. Toshiro

    Toshiro .... Contributor

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    Strange, I seem to recall the above mentioned book having the extra 'I', but you're the one who speaks the language, so I'll take your word for it. :)

    We used to have these 'nerf-like' swords we'd use for sparring, because getting out the gear(read: bogu) all the time for 2 people became insane, and as you know a shinai can do damage(bruises) and a bokken can break bones and kill if swung correctly. So we had these things, that were stiff enough to use, but didn't hurt much if you got tagged.

    Which is another thing about anime, bokken are swung around like sticks, but if you use one like a real sword the impact can cause serious damage. Especially targetting the areas of the body these arts do.

    And on that note, sleep time. :lol:
     
  17. AsIAm666

    AsIAm666 Sevenator/Emo Killer

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    I've been doing Goshin Budo Jiu-Jutsu for the passed 11 years and now I'm 16. I WOULD be going for my full second degree black this tuesday, but I havnt had much time to train along with a lot of other stuff so I'm pushing it back for now. Not sure if I'll even test again. Working there is great because we're very well payed but my hearts not really in it anymore cuz my school is kinda losing its reputation for being a great school. Its getting diluted, theres 8 year old "junior black belts" who dont even deserve to be orange belts. And its like we're not even teaching anymore, we're babysitting sometimes. Eh, whatever...thats my story, well part of it anyway. :shred:
     
  18. forelander

    forelander you fail me

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    challenge said kids, snap their arms and knock down a few pegs (or belts as it may be).
     
  19. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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  20. Naren

    Naren OldschoolGhettostyle

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    For reference (from the WWWJDIC http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?1C):

    居合い 【いあい】 (n) iai; art of drawing one's sword, cutting down one's opponent and sheathing the sword afterwards
    居合い抜き 【いあいぬき】 (n) while on one knee, drawing a sword and slashing one's opponent
    居合道 【いあどう】 (n) the art of drawing the Japanese longsword

    If you can't read the hiragana, the pronunciation for those (from top to bottom) is: Iai, Iainuki, and Iadou.

    Yeah, I've seen that in quite a few animations. What a lot of people don't realize is that those things are made of solid wood. While you couldn't slice someone's head off with one, you could crack someone's skull. With the correct technique, it's like carrying a solid metal pipe (pipes aren't solid metal, though).

    I think it's interesting that Japanese synonyms made it into martial arts in English. So, did you guys refer to that as both a bokutou and a bokken (exact same meaning, different kanji)?
     

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