Let's be selfish: 3 Item Lists of what YOU want from Uncle Sam

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by vilk, Jul 29, 2016.

  1. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

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    It's my contention that engaging in vices is part of the human condition. I'm no psychologist, but I would assume we're programmed to seek it out. We can see that it's part of how we've evolved as humans. It's part of who we are, so what makes it bad? I get that you're just making an observation, but I think you're overestimating the importance of it.

    I also think you're underestimating how many people drink alcohol every day and how a lot of people view it, but that's separate. You gotta remember, there was a period of time (uh, all the way until into the 20th century?) when alcohol was safer to drink than water. It still is in some places. I was feeling more confident in the beers when I visited Cambodia. Beer is the reason why we have written language, refrigeration, mass production, all sorts of stuff. There's a really good documentary on it that I highly recommend.
     
  2. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    I think I've just been in a rambly/ranty mood lately. Starting all the arguments on the internet lately. :lol:

    Don't mean to derail the thread.
     
  3. estabon37

    estabon37 Melodica Attack!

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    I'm not sure about anybody else, to me it looks more like you're 'thinking out loud' than 'derailing the thread'. We've been asked to consider which three things we (selfishly) want from the government. Plenty of people have suggested legalisation / decriminalisation of drugs; you're unpacking the other side of the story, and importantly, you're using your own thoughts rather than relying on the talking points of groups that campaign against drug law reform.

    To add to Vilk's argument (which I think is pretty strong), alcohol prohibition in the US in the 1920s showed us how much time and effort it takes to police substances, the potential level of corruption it can breed in those that write and enforce the laws, and who winds up being empowered by these kinds of laws (largely the black market). I understand being against loosening laws on substances from a 'wellbeing' perspective, but speaking practically, I think two factors trump health concerns: removing the burden of enforcing substance laws from police forces (and prison systems), and taking the money out of the hands of dangerous people and putting it in the hands of business owners (maybe even people that could transition from illegitimate business into legitimate business). I mean, imagine the good that could be done by potentially converting many weed dealers into either an employer or employee in a regulated industry, and simultaneously freeing up every cop whose entire job revolved around busting said weed dealers. I don't see how that's not a win-win. Now, imagine the potential harm of telling alcohol consumers that their only means of accessing booze is the black market. Or, instead of imagining it, read this article on how meth became a booming industry in counties in Kentucky when they banned booze.

    Many of us have vices. Many of those vices are 100% legal. If prohibition taught us anything, it should be that adults should be allowed to make their own choices, and not feel that they can't seek support if their choices get the better of them.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2016
  4. schantist

    schantist Banned

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    1)Nuke ISIS
    2)Nuke Turkey
    3)Nuke themselves
     
  5. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    Constructive.
     
  6. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    I can appreciate that view of what I've commented so far. :yesway:

    I'll reiterate that I'm not against decriminalization or anything like that- I just think (in a thinking out loud way) that giving our vices such high priority is a noteworthy observation to make. It says something about us.
     
  7. schantist

    schantist Banned

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    At least it's more likely to happen than "Universal Health Care" :nuts:
     
  8. flint757

    flint757 SS.org Regular

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    You say that yet it would seem Colorado might be doing just that.
     
  9. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    How about start with mental health care. I think this country has a severe mental health epidemic. Everyone seems to be going bat.... right now, and there is little to no infrastructure to help them get better.
     
  10. cwhitey2

    cwhitey2 BlackendCrust Metal™

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    I agree 100%

    They just shut down one of the biggest facilities in my area....and set people free. Some actually help with living (mentally disabled) others are just nut jobs. It's sad we put those 2 together in facilities when they aren't even related IMO..but then again I'm not a doctor so what do I know :lol:


    Also, get rid a privatized prisons/for profit.
     
  11. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    I would assert, without any extensive data, that >50% of folks in prison in the USA would have benefited much more from admission into a mental healthcare facility instead. I know that this kind of care costs a lot of money, but on the other hand, how many lives might be saved by keeping these folks medicated and stable(ish)?
     
  12. cwhitey2

    cwhitey2 BlackendCrust Metal™

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    I totally agree. And for profit prisons are part of the problem. More people = more money.

    There is a serious mental health crisis going on in America and the media seems to want to blame guns or anything else it can use as a scapegoat instead of looking at the real issues.

    Whatever happened to just being labeled crazy? I know that is a bit harsh, but it's reality and if people don't/can't accept it than we can't fix it.
    :coffee: (I'm actually drinking coffee right)
     
  13. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    Crazy is a pretty broad and polarizing term, but I get it and I agree. Some people with certain social issues are just not going to function in society without some sort of help, and some of those are dangerous unless they receive mental health care. We don't know a lot about mental health, actually, compared to, say, what we know about lung health or liver health. Some people will say that "that's just the way they are," but science can say quite a few things about brain function, what is "normal," and what is "abnormal," and people who are violent often, if not generally, fall into the category of "abnormal," insomuch as an FMRI can see lack of function in areas of the brain.

    What doesn't help at all is attaching a stigma to people with mental health needs, but also, avoiding labeling an individual as dangerous based upon scientific evidence that they are dangerous as well as criminal evidence that they are dangerous, and then throwing them in a prison, where their mental health will only deteriorate further, and releasing them when they've "paid their debt to society" (which is a meaningless statement, as far as I'm concerned), calling them "rehabilitated," and then this individual knows not what to do but continue behaving as conditioned by prison life - well, it's so dysfunctional that it in and of itself is "crazy."

    We might as well take a person having a mental health crisis, feed them PCP, tell them that everyone around them is a space alien trying to eat their brain, and give them a pocket knife and set them loose. The result might not be much different.
     
  14. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    Some more thinking out loud, while I'm here. :lol:

    Serious question: Is there actually? I ask this as someone who isn't American, doesn't have access to first hand experience, and hasn't yet seen anything to back this up, outside of a wealth of online self-assessment and personal anecdotes. Google tells me that NIMH considers 1 in 5 people to have some kind of mental illness, but also notes that there's a huge range of severity within that group, so this could include people who are suicidal and people who are mildly inconvenienced in the same statistic. Other websites give entirely different stats (or use the NIMH numbers [or approximations] but interpret/skew them a different way). And then even if we see a rise in statistics, does that means there's more actual instances, or does it mean just an increase in reports? Could it also be a sign of lessened criteria to qualify as "mentally ill"? How do you even judge something like this?

    Edit:
    To go a step farther, would it maybe be beneficial to come up with better terminology- something that makes a distinction between someone who maybe does have a legitimate abnormality but still otherwise functions for the most part, compared to someone who is unable to function day-to-day without assistance?
     
  15. celticelk

    celticelk Enflamed with prayer

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    This is supposed to be a point in favor of your proposed nuking?
     
  16. cwhitey2

    cwhitey2 BlackendCrust Metal™

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    Where is that damn like button :lol:


    Well said sir. I think the stigma attached most certainly does not help.

    The government not giving a .... doesn't help either.


    I feel like the governments attitude is 'if we don't acknowledge a problem there is none'.



    There is an issue, but they ignore it like it doesn't exist.
     
  17. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    Maybe true as a side issue. I was speaking about how so many people in the USA need mental healthcare and instead end up in prison, or living on the streets, homeless...

    Here is some data:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  18. cwhitey2

    cwhitey2 BlackendCrust Metal™

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    Home run. :yesway:
     
  19. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    :yesway:

    I think I was trying to make a distinction between "there are more mentally ill people right now" and "there's roughly the same number of mentally ill people but we're handling them poorly right now".
     
  20. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    Ahh, I see...Well, there are more people, in general, so there are more mentally ill people by absolute numbers, and we aren't dealing with them properly. Maybe the same number by ratio, though - I don't know, maybe not. It'd be to hard to tell anecdotally, and I don't have any data.
     

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