Learnning Jazz from a book?

Discussion in 'Jazz, Acoustic, Classical & Fingerstyle' started by trippled, Apr 23, 2012.

  1. trippled

    trippled SS.org Regular

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    Hi,

    I've been playing guitar for 8 years, my theory knowledge is very basic,
    I know the pentatonic\major\minor\harmonic minor scales very well through all the neck, same goes with Major\Minor\Major 7\dominant 7\minor 7th chords.

    I even took a few jazz lessons lately and learned to harmonize the C major scale with triads including their inversions and septh chords and their inversions on each string set.

    I think the teacher is great but he's also abit expensive and budget is tight.

    What I'm actually interested in is learnning to phrase like tom quayle\holdsworth\guthrie govan, I'm not much into the real jazz thing.

    Could you guys recommend me a book that would help me to study in an efficient way more chords, scales, modes and in depth explanations on using these when improvising?

    It's very important for me that when learnning new information I'll have a "system" to apply it anywhere on the neck and not just 3-4 shapes.

    Another thing is that I feel I dont know the neck that well in terms of which note lies where, I mean, I could find what the 17th fret on the A string would be in a few seconds, but I dont have that time when I improvise.

    Your recommendations?
     
  2. Trespass

    Trespass AEADGBEA

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    Get the Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine. It's not going to be easy to break into, and goes far beyond what you need.

    A lot of the Govan/Howe/Holdsworth/Quayle fusion stuff is pretty harmonically simple overall. It's usually modal, non-functional progressions that hang on chords for a long time. Basically, they just run scales and modes over top - I'm hearing a lot of it as just pattern playing.

    What makes their pattern playing different than most guys, is that they've worked those patterns out so that chord tones land on downbeats. 90% of Quayle's stuff reminds me of that. Govan gets very chromatic, but the concept is the same.

    Look into Bebop scale patterns and enclosures as a way to learn how to play lines that rhythmically place chordtones on downbeats.

    After you understand the concept, start transcribing those guys, and start using the patterns into your playing.
     
  3. trippled

    trippled SS.org Regular

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    Will that book get me from the very beginning into bebop phrasing? or it won't really touch bebop phrasing probably?

    Really all I'm interested in is to be able to phrase like quayle does here, this is the most appealing fusion phrasing
    I've ever heard, really amazes me.
     
  4. Trespass

    Trespass AEADGBEA

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    It's just scales and patterns. Learn how phrasing lines with chord tones on downbeats work (David Baker's bebop book would be more than enough). Then transcribe Quayle's lines and analyze what variation on the concept he's done. I also hear some exotic scales in some of the stuff, but most of it is overwhelmingly diatonic.

    That's it. That's the modern fusion style in two-three paragraphs.



    If there's anything I've learned from listening to the fusion guys, it's twofold:

    Don't leave any space in your lines.
    Don't interact with other members of your band. Treat them like a backing track.

    /Yeah, don't do that. But it's what I hear in every modern fusion guy. Zero band band interaction, zero space between lines.
     
  5. trippled

    trippled SS.org Regular

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    Well, there's allot more rock soloing attitude there than just traditional jazz phrasing.

    I never got really into jazz guitarists honestly, not quiet my cup of tea, I always felt like I need to know allot of theory to understand why what the guy just played was great, at the same time my friend's family which aren't musicians at all are having guthrie govan's album in their car - to me this is an amazing achivement.
     
  6. trippled

    trippled SS.org Regular

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    I just realized that the book isn't really written for guitar players - this concerns me abit since I know for example that septh chord inversions are organized differently on guitar than on piano for example, not really sure about that.. also, will the book fit well to someone like me who doesn't have the best theoretical background out there?
     
  7. Trespass

    Trespass AEADGBEA

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    Err... This is why you just don't go stating in the OP that you know all of this stuff, when you don't.

    Seventh chords aren't organized differently on the guitar than piano. Some voicings are more common on one instrument than the other, but if I play all the inversions of a Drop 2 Am7, it's going to be the exact same pitches on piano or guitar.

    And yes, there isn't any tab in the book. All of the voicing demonstrations are simplified piano voicings.

    ----------
    Brush up on your theory (take a theory course, take lessons), then just transcribe a bunch of Quayle stuff. End of story. Knowing your scales across the neck (and understanding their intervals and how they relate to the chord your playing over - super simple) as well as your arpeggios will be it. Just plug in the common phrases and patterns Quayle uses into the matrix of scales/arpeggios you construct across the neck, and that'll get you the sound.

    Everything after that is rhythm, articulation, improvised melody and "filler" licks in between.

    I mean, what I was going on above about understanding the science behind the lines is moot if you really just want to sound the bare minimum like a fusion player. Just rip off everyone elses patterns, then come up with variations. It'll get you there quicker in the end.
     
  8. trippled

    trippled SS.org Regular

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    Well will drop II voicings on piano would be 1-5-7-3 as the root position, 3-7-1-5 as first inversion etc...?

    I do know those inversions, I'm just afraid there will be other stuff that is voiced differently for guitar - it is voiced differently by the way because it's impossible to play the regular voicings on standard tunning.

    I didn't state I know anything I don't in the OP.
     
  9. Trespass

    Trespass AEADGBEA

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    There isn't such thing as "regular" voicings.
    Each era features some distinct ideas on voicing, but there are tons of examples that break the mold.

    Drop 2s have been around since 1950s, both on guitar and piano. "Drop" is apparently a relatively modern term for it (70s/80s?), but the concept and the voicings have certainly been around for a very long time - a lot of 30s-40s big band stuff features horns using drop 2/3/4 voicings for a full sound.

    As someone that plays both live, I can tell you that there is very little difference between piano and guitar voicings. The biggest my voicings will ever get on piano is 6 notes, and that's rare (and has a lot of doubling, frowned upon in jazz academia).


    In fact, the secret to being a versatile comper, is understanding how various structures you already know can be subbed over different changes.

    For example, I'll take your standard G13 voicing (F A B E), and shift it up 4 semitones. This produces (Ab C D G) over G, or a G7b9sus4. If I play it a tritone up from G, it gives me (B Eb F Bb) over G, a G7 b9b13 or G7Alt chord.

    And that's just taking a diatonic scale based idea. I can start pulling from different melodic minor scales to get even more different voicing or soloing ideas. The most obvious being playing a melodic minor a half step above a 7 chord, producing all of the possible alterations over a 7. (Ex. Abmm scale over G7 = G7 b9 #9 #11 b13 or G7Alt)


    Most modern guys I hear around town (not referring to the post-Rosenwinkel crowd), are using drop 2s, upper structure triads, quartals and lots of chord scales.

    Yes. These chords are used everywhere, by everyone, including soloists (at least Jerry Bergonzi advocates sax/melodic instruments learning chord voicings as arpeggios it in one of his books). Big band voicings etc.
     
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  10. trippled

    trippled SS.org Regular

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    Didn't understand your example that much - too much chinese for now.

    I'm happy I bought the book then, actually read a few pages on amazon, got me started playing II-IV-I's immediately (-:

    Thank you.
     
  11. StratoJazz

    StratoJazz SS.org Regular

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    I'd just recommend you transcribe those players. Get a copy of audacity, slow the tracks down, and then try to figure out how to play it. It sucks, but I've always found when I transcribe a lick it becomes more ingrained in my playing. Plus if you focus on getting it to sound like it does on the record, you capture the notes and phrasing too.

    If you want to learn Holdsworth stuff, really transcribing it is the only way to do it. There aren't any Hot Licks books for Holdsworth(except for Reaching for the Uncommon Chord) and those REH videos(which are beyond blehhhhh). Guthrie is probably a similar story, and i don't know about tom quayle(definitely going to check him out).

    Besides when you transcribe, you get it straight from the source unfiltered and unedited. You just have to put the time and the effort into figuring it out.

    -------------------------------

    As far as books to play over jazz changes go, the Jazz Theory Book is good. My personal favorite is Hal Galper's Forward Motion:From Bach to Bebop. Even if you aren't really into playing jazz, a quick read through the first chapter will get you think about alot of different aspects of phrasing and improvising in general.

    Teachers are expensive, but worth it if you have a really good one. Then again, find a teacher in your area that can teach you to play like Guthrie,Allan, or Quayle. You'll get alot out of that.

    -------------------------------

    I forgot, if you want to play Legato-like fusion over standard jazz tunes, check out Holdsworth's album None Too Soon.
     
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  12. technomancer

    technomancer Gearus Pimptasticus Super Moderator

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    No idea if they're any good but it looks like Tom Quayle has a bunch of instructional videos out (assuming this is the guy you're talking about)

    Lessons - Tom Quayle
     
  13. SammerX

    SammerX SS.org Regular

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    Check out some of the lessons Brendan Burns did for JamPlay... They have a few on youtube I think. I did their 7 day trial recently and I watched a bunch of his videos on chord voice leading and they were extremely helpful. He had by far the best approach to teaching them that I have seen.
     
  14. Hybrid138

    Hybrid138 SS.org Regular

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    There are some cool lessons on YouTube but you have filter through what is "mumbo-jumbo" to you and what makes sense. Some people know what they're talking about but can't cater to less educated players. I know theory and sometimes I have to stop the video, figure out what he means, and keep watching.

    IMO, in the long run, theory makes learning any musical genre easier for the player.
     
  15. Judas Prius

    Judas Prius SS.org Regular

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    My recommendation... Frank Gambale Technique Books 1 & 2. They're about all you'll ever need and more.

    I just picked up Mark Levine's Jazz Theory book. I know I'll spend quite a few years studying that over and over.
     
  16. trippled

    trippled SS.org Regular

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    Did you ever see this video? I think tom's playing here is very musical, I'm in love with that solo..
     
  17. incinerated_guitar

    incinerated_guitar SS.org Regular

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    I think I saw a meme about this in the meme section:lol:
     
  18. StratoJazz

    StratoJazz SS.org Regular

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    Finally got the time to check out Tom Quayle. BADASS!!!!

    Now I'm going to be a bit of an attention whore, but i feel like I need to post something of mine. You may find it somewhat useful as well. Especially since it goes along with learning jazz in general. Because I do feel on some level every fusion player should be able to play some straight-ahead jazz. Like I said, check it out if you want, it's been around for a while.

    http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/ja...arist-who-wants-delve-into-something-new.html
     
  19. Solodini

    Solodini MORE RESTS!

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    One thing I think will benefit you is to construct chords yourself. Pick a chord, voice it. Try to find where else you can play that exact same voicing in the same register, displace one note and move that new voicing around et c. Even if its just one chord, a lot of it will be transferable to other chords. Don't overlook open strings for use in chords, as well. They help with difficult voicings which you can't necessarily reach with all fretted notes. Take a chord sequence and revoice it, move the whole
    sequence around. It's a fairly simple exercise which will be infinitely useful in the rest of your jazz career.

    Also, if you've learned to harmonise C major then you've learned to harmonise any key, provided you understand key signatures and scale construction.

    If you find the jazz books a bit much initially, have a go at the free sample chapters of my book linked in my sig.
     
  20. celticelk

    celticelk Enflamed with prayer

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    It's Monday, and the coffee is still kicking in, so I'm going to take a moment to assume my self-appointed curmudgeonly old man role here on SS.org: why is it that guys who seem to play nothing but hyperspeed scale/arpeggio/sequence runs mixed up with half-assed B.B King-isms get heralded as "awesome fusion players"? Yes, he's technically fluent. He's also predictable and boring. If I'm going to listen to a rock/jazz hybrid, I'd rather listen to someone who can actually surprise me: Vernon Reid, Wayne Krantz, David Torn. Quayle isn't bringing anything to the party that McLaughlin and Beck weren't doing in the 70s. Jazz is a progressive music. Can we please progress a little?

    /rant. As you were, citizens.
     

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