Jazz on an 8-string?

Discussion in 'Jazz, Acoustic, Classical & Fingerstyle' started by CombatWombat95, Oct 30, 2011.

  1. Iamasingularity

    Iamasingularity 7string Ghost

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    Thats ridiculus, there`s a video right above you of him doing really jazzy voicings, and if you`ve heard the 2 albums, there`s alot of jazz breakdowns.
    Tosin integrates his jazz influences and techniques perfectly into much heavy playing! Someone give this guy their CD!:wallbash:
     
  2. SirMyghin

    SirMyghin The Dirt Guy Contributor

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    ^ Jazz influences yes, jazz, no. That is not a shot at the guy in the least, it is however what is happening.
     
  3. Kairos

    Kairos Quintessentially So

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    :lol: You've said it yourself. He uses jazz voicings (which is why I said to learn chord extensions). It's just that there's a lack of understanding by some people. Tosin certainly has a strong jazz influence (especially on certain pieces, like Modern Meat, but that doesn't make it jazz.
     
  4. Trespass

    Trespass AEADGBEA

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    Jazz died in 1959.

    There maybe cool individuals who say they play Jazz, but ain’t shit cool about Jazz as a whole.

    Jazz died when cool stopped being hip.

    Jazz was a limited idea to begin with.

    Jazz is a label that was forced upon the musicians.

    The musicians should’ve never accepted that idea.

    Jazz ain’t shit.

    Jazz is incestuous.

    Jazz separated itself from American popular music.

    Big mistake.

    The music never recovered.

    Ornette tried to save Jazz from itself by taking the music back to its New Orleanian roots, but his efforts were too esoteric.

    Jazz died in 1959, that’s why Ornette tried to “Free Jazz” in 1960.

    Jazz is only cool if you don’t actually play it for a living.

    Jazz musicians have accepted the idea that it’s OK to be poor.

    John Coltrane is a bad cat, but Jazz stopped being cool in 1959.

    The very fact that so many people are holding on to this idea of what Jazz is supposed to be is exactly what makes it not cool.

    People are holding on to an idea that died long ago.

    Jazz, like the Buddha, is dead.

    Let it go, people, let it go.

    Paul Whiteman was the King of Jazz and someday all kings must fall.

    Jazz ain’t cool, it’s cold, like necrophilia.

    Stop fucking the dead and embrace the living.

    Jazz worries way too much about itself for it to be cool.

    Jazz died in 1959.

    The number one Jazz record is Miles Davis’ Kind Of Blue.

    Dave Brubeck’s Time Out was released in 1959.

    1959 was the coolest year in Jazz.

    Jazz is haunted by its own hungry ghosts.

    Let it die.

    You can be martyrs for an idea that died over a half a century if y’all want.

    Jazz has proven itself to be limited, and therefore, not cool.

    Lot’s wife turned to a pillar of salt from looking back.

    Jazz is dead.

    Miles ahead.

    Some may say that I’m no longer the same dude who recorded the album with Doc Cheatham.

    Correct: I’m not the same dude I was 14 years ago.

    Isn’t that the point?

    Our whole purpose on this planet is to evolve.

    The Golden Age of Jazz is gone.

    Let it go.

    Too many necrophiliacs in Jazz.

    You’re making my case for me.

    Some people may say we are defined by our limitations.

    I don’t believe in limitations, but yes, if you believe you are limited that will define you.

    Definitions are retrospective.

    And if you find yourself getting mad, it’s probably because you know Jazz is dead.

    Why get upset if what I’m saying doesn’t ring true?

    I can’t speak for anyone else, but I don’t play Jazz.

    I play Postmodern New Orleans music.

    Louis Armstrong and Danny Barker play Traditional New Orleans Music.

    Ellis Marsalis and James Black play Modern New Orleans music.

    Kidd Jordan and Clyde Kerr play Avant-garde New Orleans music.

    Donald Harrison plays Neoclassical New Orleans music.

    I play Postmodern New Orleans music.

    I am a part of a lineage.

    I am a part of a blood line.

    My ancestors didn’t play Jazz, they played Traditional, Modern and Avant-garde New Orleans Music.

    I don’t play Jazz.

    I don’t let others define who I am.

    I am a Postmodern New Orleans musician.

    I create music for the heart and the head, for the beauty and the booty.

    The man who lets others define him is a dead man.

    With all due respect to the masters, they were victims of a colonialist mentality.

    Blacks have been conditioned for centuries to be grateful for whatever crumbs thrown to them.

    As a postmodern musician, it’s my duty to do better than my predecessors.

    To question, reexamine and redefine what it is that we do.

    They accepted it because they had to.

    Because my ancestors opened the door for me, I don’t have to accept it.

    Louis bowed and scraped so Miles could turn his back.

    It’s called evolution.

    It’s the colonialist mentality that glorifies being treated like a slave.

    There is nothing romantic about poor, scuffling Jazz musicians.

    Fuck that idea.

    It’s not cool.

    Jazz is a lie.

    America is a lie.

    Playing Jazz is like running on a treadmill: you may break a sweat, but ultimately you ain’t going nowhere.

    Some people may say we are limited.

    I say, we are as limited as we think.

    I am not limited.

    Jazz is a marketing ploy that serves an elite few.

    The elite make all the money while they tell the true artists it’s cool to be broke.

    Occupy Jazz!

    I am not speaking of so-called Jazz’s improvisational aspects.

    Improvisation by its very nature can never be passé, but mindsets are invariably deadly.

    Not knowing is the most you can ever know.

    It’s only when you don’t know that “everything” is possible.

    Jazz has nothing to do with music or being cool.

    It’s a marketing idea.

    A glaring example of what’s wrong with Jazz is how people fight over it.

    People are too afraid to let go of a name that is killing the spirit of the music.

    Life is bigger than music, unless you love and/or play Jazz.

    The art, or lack thereof, is just a reflection.

    Miles Davis personified cool and he hated Jazz.

    What is Jazz anyway?

    Life isn’t linear, it’s concentric.

    When you’re truly creating you don’t have time to think about what to call it.

    Who thinks of what they’ll name the baby while they’re fucking?

    Playing Jazz is like using the rear-view mirror to drive your car on the freeway.

    If you think Jazz is a style of music, you’ll never begin to understand.

    It’s ultimately on the musicians.

    People are fickle and follow the pack.

    Not enough artists willing to soldier for their shit.

    People follow trends and brands.

    So do musicians, sadly.

    Jazz is a brand.

    Jazz ain’t music, it’s marketing, and bad marketing at that.

    It has never been, nor will it ever be, music.

    Here lies Jazz (1916 – 1959).

    Too many musicians and not enough artists.

    I believe music to be more of a medium than a brand.

    Silence is music, too.

    You can’t practice art.

    In order for it to be true, one must live it.

    Existence is not contingent upon thought.

    It’s where you choose to put silence that makes sound music.

    Sound and silence equals music.

    Sometimes when I’m soloing, I don’t play shit.

    I just move blocks of silence around.

    The notes are an afterthought.

    Silence is what makes music sexy.

    Silence is cool.

    - Nicholas Payton
     
  5. Trespass

    Trespass AEADGBEA

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    Tosin is more than what you guys are stating. If I were to try and condense what Tosin is doing harmonically, I'd say he's pulling from melodic minor, whole tone, and voicing these chords quartally and quintally at times.

    Opening lick in Tempting Time is a maj7#5 run, which is third mode of melodic minor. I hear lots of bits like this.

    Tosin's voicings aren't just "jazz voicings and extensions". He's pulling from a very specific genre of jazz (mainly the post-Metheny guitar generation - Rosenwinkel and co). I assume that some to nearly all of his voicings are his own, and if he did get it from somewhere, they didn't exist or definitely were not common pre-1990s.
     
  6. Iamasingularity

    Iamasingularity 7string Ghost

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    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Fucking love this dude.
     
  7. Kairos

    Kairos Quintessentially So

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    I'm not trying to come off as making Tosin's music out to be any less (I LOVE the self-titled). What I'm trying to say is, however harmonically complex his music, it's not really "jazz". It's funny coming into a thread saying they want to learn jazz, then site Tosin. As far as voicings go, obviously, there weren't exactly many 8-string bebop players :lol:, but I bet Ted Greene knew them on a 6, because his enharmonic knowledge and fretboard mastery was just off the wall.


    What did you mean by posting the Payton quote? I read it the other day, but it seemed like he had a slightly different goal writeing it, and I'm not sure how it fits into the thread.
     
  8. Trespass

    Trespass AEADGBEA

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    I have no idea what made you think I was pushing Tosin as a jazz artist. I'd go as far to say that he can't improvise as well as the average 3-4th year university student in a jazz program.

    Payton quote was a reference to "wanting to learn jazz".

    Why mention 8 string bebop? Bebop is one of the most straightforward jazz languages around, despite what a lot of jazz programs will tell you. It's not some pinnacle of the art form. There are maybe 12 different devices you need to know to play bebop.

    Bebop doesn't sound good in the lower registers at all (5th and 6th string), why bother extending to 7th and 8th?
     
  9. SirMyghin

    SirMyghin The Dirt Guy Contributor

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    The lower the note, the less fast you can play em and sound good. Gotta let them hit you after all. That is part of why Stanley Clarke tuned his bass UP. (not arguing with you, enforcing it).
     
  10. The Reverend

    The Reverend GHETTO KING OF SWAG

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    I see that genre debates don't just apply to the micro-genres in metal? :rofl:
     
  11. Mindcrime1204

    Mindcrime1204 SS.org Regular

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    That Nicholas Payton dude must have been doped up beyond shit when he said/wrote all that stuff... :lol:
     
  12. Trespass

    Trespass AEADGBEA

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    That, and you have no harmonic support in those registers. Us pianists won't voice thirds that low (most of the time). The 5th and 6th strings is bass territory anyways.
     
  13. SirMyghin

    SirMyghin The Dirt Guy Contributor

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    ^ especially the way I play bass, love my 5 string as I can live at 7th fret or so. Need a 6 string though, one day.
     
  14. Tyghor

    Tyghor SS.org Regular

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    He tuned his bass up? Do you know what kind of tuning he is usining? You've just hit my curiosity real hard! :p
     
  15. SirMyghin

    SirMyghin The Dirt Guy Contributor

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    Pretty sure he tuned up a 4th, so A D G C, aka the top 4 strings of a 6 stringer. Whether or not he still does is unknown to me.
     
  16. GATA4

    GATA4 Banned

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    To the OP: Check out some walking-bass-line style jazz grooves. Although I'm sure most You-Tube tutorials will feature a six-string player usually, if your grasp on basic chord knowledge is pretty savvy then you should be able to learn those grooves using the first six strings. Then, experiment with them using the full range of the eight (aka you could make some meeean bass lines under the melody). Learning walking-bass-lines and the chords that are played on every other beat is an excellent way to become familiar with many jazz chord progressions--how to approach them, how to resolve them, etc. You will also become familiar with different voicings of chords--a huge aspect of jazz.




    Those two videos are really helpful. I'm currently practicing the lick in the second video. It's a lot of fun :)
     
  17. Trespass

    Trespass AEADGBEA

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    Great effort, but I'm pretty sure the OP has no interest in jazz.
     
  18. SirMyghin

    SirMyghin The Dirt Guy Contributor

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    Considering he hasn't come back since we said Tosin =/= jazz, probably a fair assessment :lol:
     
  19. GATA4

    GATA4 Banned

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    Haha well, maybe another young chap who actually wants to learn jazz will take our advice.
     
  20. The Reverend

    The Reverend GHETTO KING OF SWAG

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    TBH, I had assumed that AAL songs like Modern Meat were jazz, but I see now that it doesn't swing. Having informed myself a bit, or rather having been informed by you guys, I feel like I can sort of identify where the jazz influence comes from in his voicings, and even a bit in some of his tapping sections where the bass note kinda sorta walks.

    Is there such a thing as jazz that's more chord-based than swing based? I like the complexity of jazz voicings, but swinging them IMO both shortens and cheapens their existence. Any of you jazzophiles aware of anything like this?
     

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