International Men's Day

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by BucketheadRules, Nov 1, 2015.

  1. Eliguy666

    Eliguy666 V's are Just Better

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    When I respond directly to your claims, it's ridiculous to pretend that you did not make them. When I say that I have personal experience on this matter where you have cited none and obviously misunderstand it, "Stop assuming I'm inexperienced" is not a merited rebuttal.

    And

    When you suggest that the direction which an ideology has taken is defined by some mystical evil, which you fail to specify in any manner simply because that means the idea cannot be addressed, I expect more significant proof than the invocation of the horrendously overused and misunderstood "No-True-Scotsman" rallying call.
     
  2. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    Look, you can misinterpret what I say and paint me as the bad guy all you want, I really don't care. I also don't care about your personal experiences. They're not relevant to the conversation. Does that offend you? Too bad, I still don't care. I never said feminism is evil, 'cause it's not- but it's not perfect either.

    Regardless, laughing at someone for suggesting that one day out of the year it might be appropriate to discuss mens issues too is ridiculous. Do you disagree with that?
     
  3. Eliguy666

    Eliguy666 V's are Just Better

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    I do, in fact, much in the same way I don't bandage undamaged skin or blow out unlit candles. I do not think it ridiculous to laugh at an MP who claims that men are discriminated against more than women are when that same MP has actively acted to the disadvantage of the racially, sexually, and economically disenfranchised. Jess Phillips is unfortunate only because she phrases true things in ways that do not coddle the uninformed.

    If you are unfamiliar with Davies, the person you are siding with in this conflict, let me list some basic facets of his political being:

    -Davies openly opposes the Human Rights Act Terror order changes 'don't go far enough' (From Bradford Telegraph and Argus)

    -Davies is a proponent of blackface Philip Davies: Tory MP 'never understood why blacking up was offensive' - Telegraph

    -In 2011, he proposed that the minimum wage should not apply to disabled workers MP says minimum wage a hindrance to disabled jobseekers - BBC News

    You can say that as many times as you want, but unless you provide a "correct" interpretation of what you said with some form of support, I'm not going to even consider your objection to my interpretation.

    When you say that my experiences are irrelevant, it is not lost on me that you forward yours as some universal truth:
     
  4. Demiurge

    Demiurge Intrepid Jackass

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  5. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    I can tell you based on this one line that we're never going to agree on anything. I'm guessing you have some kind of beef with men or non-feminists or something, and again, I don't care what that is- but mens problems are not non-existant, as you're suggesting, and talking about them 1 day during the year isn't going to hurt anyone.

    I know nothing about the guy who suggested the idea, and I'm not in support of the specific guy- just the one thing he said once and got laughed at for. You're consistently trying to connect what I said to ideas you don't agree with to make a point, but there's nothing to read between the lines here about.

    It's an opinion. It doesn't need interpretation and it doesn't need your approval. How about this: you've proved my point for me. I made the suggestion that feminism isn't perfect, so you swooped in to make sure I am "corrected". When I say:
    I'm talking about you. Because in this thread that would have otherwise been about mens issues, you instead insisted on making sure that I have the "correct" view (aka your view) of what feminism is or means. We could have spoken about mens issues, but you didn't allow it.
     
  6. Eliguy666

    Eliguy666 V's are Just Better

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  7. Edika

    Edika SS.org Regular

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    Ah I tried feminism and not the "no true Scotchman" version. It does come up as a second definition though when I type "no true Scotchman". That doesn't mean something specific other that a lot of people do this kind of search on google so it's bumped up to the second most searched results.
    I actually retried a couple of seconds later and hitting space after Scotchman got me fallacy, islam, feminism and isis as the top 4 results.

    Aside from the above, as a non native English speaker, I wasn't aware of the term NTS or what it referred too. Learn something new everyday :).
     
  8. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    I know, wasn't making a point of it necessarily- just found it amusing.
     
  9. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    :rolleyes:

    Look, we've argued on a number of threads before. We have fundamentally different world views are aren't going to agree on anything. I can accept that, and there's not anything wrong with that per-se, but there's no need to call me nuts for seeing things from a different point of view. If you disagree then just say you disagree with me and leave it at that. I've made my point, and you've made yours, there's no need to keep the back and forth going.
     
  10. Edika

    Edika SS.org Regular

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    If you guys will permit me to intervene as I see this going a bit out of control, it seems that when people get really passionate about issues they tend to let sentiment take over than discussing ideas logically and sometimes engaging in "ad hominem" posts (well look at me using this probably correctly like a big boy :) ).

    I don't think the TedEH is insinuating that women are treated as equal and there's no point in feminism or that feminism is out of touch and out of base. At least I think and hope not. There is however a part of women and men that identify as feminists, whether they are or not is a whole different discussion, that I don't know how vocal they are but seem to get highlighted by the media for specific reasons and especially to alter the perception of the people that don't really pay attention an easy example not to keep paying attention. That's not happening of course only for feminism. So take a vocal and absurd minority and transform them in the public view as the norm. How many times have we not heard the term femi-nazi but a specific part of the political spectrum trying to invalidate all logical arguments this specific group is making.

    On the other hand I am not sure about the whole man's day thing. I tend to see it as an opportunity for some useless merchandise to be produced to "boost" some economy and again a vocal and absurd minority of men spouting nonsense and ruining it for everybody else. There are men's issues that should be discussed but the question is will they? One personal example I can think off is that I was entitled to two weeks off paternal leave, with reduced pay for one week. I am not going to say "why do women get 6 months here or one year in other countries?", as again some political parties would claim, but instead say "Why can't I get the same amount of parental leave to bond with my child? Why is my role as a parent being downplayed?".

    The problem with vocal and absurd minorities is that they just don't shut up. They keep spouting and spouting their nonsense to give meaning to their otherwise meaningless existence and get people disinterested with the actual and meaningful ideas they butcher with their limited perceptions.

    I also think that I'm venting about something completely different that partly applies to this.

    Eliguy666, this Davies guy seems like a POS. Even though I have been leaving in this country for 2 years I haven't been paying much attention but yes Tory government is a conflagration of adults with the emotional and intellectual prowess of teenagers from their respective eras. I am not sure what his agenda is for wanting to discuss men's issues and I'm sure it's not for the good of men. Politicians hardly have the best intention of the citizens in mind, be it men or women. The funny thing is not that this guy asked for this discussion claiming suicide rates and so on. It's that the government he represents is mainly responsible for the policies and situation that drive the increase of these stats.

    To close my long winded and maybe pointless and confusing post, while I do believe we don't have gender equality and that women are shafted and that also men do have issues that are need to be discussed, I'm glad and lucky I was born male. It's just easier to go through life as a white male in a first world country.
     
  11. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    I never insinuated any of those things. :shrug: Saying that "feminism is flawed" doesn't have any bearing on whatever good it also happens to do alongside some of what I happen to think isn't quite as good. I see it as being a sort of double-edged-sword situation.
     
  12. Eliguy666

    Eliguy666 V's are Just Better

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    What annoys me most, rather than your views (which I still hold to be inaccurate, as is the broadest sociological consensus), is the method in which you state them. You're absolutely unwilling to defend anything you say logically, and then act like my pointing that out is character-assassination. It's like speaking to a wall.
     
  13. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    I don't know what more you want from me. I stated my opinion, that's it. I don't think mens issues should be laughed at, I don't think mens issues are non-existent, and I've never personally encountered someone who identified as a feminist who was willing to discuss mens issues, despite the fact that some people claim that "real feminists totally would talk about". I never said feminism is bad or evil, I never said that womens issues aren't a thing, or made any claims that anyone is "already equal". If you disagree with my opinion, then fine. I'm perfectly willing to drop it at that. If you want to make an argument out of it, or convince me otherwise, then give me something to go on other than just saying I'm wrong and calling me nuts.
     
  14. Eliguy666

    Eliguy666 V's are Just Better

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    You do realize that I listed several feminist resources earlier which deal with men's issues and that I criticized the suggestion made by the MP because it's a token move that does nothing but suggest that pro-women efforts are inherently sexist, right? I'm not saying that these issues don't exist, I'm saying that the way that Davies approached them was inherently laughable because of his poor track record on social issues.

    I am a feminist, and I realize that these issues which men face exist and should be combatted. I do not understand how any impression otherwise could occur, which is why I've criticized your perception of feminism so heavily: it relies on me and a good number of authors who I linked in the thread literally not existing.

    I'd go further to say that the issues which men face are typical of the same toxic set of social attitudes which harm women.

    I'm simply very impatient at this point because I've clearly explained all of this earlier in the thread.
     
  15. flint757

    flint757 SS.org Regular

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    I think you're honestly just reading way too much into it personally.

    You have been very condescending in many of your posts in this thread. Even if he were wrong there's no reason to be an ass about it. :shrug:

    That's definitely a personal attack.

    And this is somewhat an Appeal to Authority.

    ---

    You have definitely skewed some rather innocent statements to their extreme negative conclusions in a couple of your posts in this thread. That actually points more to personal bias than objectivity IMO.

    Ironically, I tangentially agree with you to a degree as I agree with UnderTheSign that largely these sort of movements are reactionary and actually have very little interest in improving male issues at all. That doesn't make the idea itself flawed, however, anymore than the minority 'femi-nazis' having a jacked up POV would towards the core principles of feminism. Different sides of the same coin. I actually have seen people attempt to tackle the issues with 'macho' culture in the US so it does seem that people are indeed taking notice. People who believe in more traditional roles have been the biggest hurdle to progress in this regard.

    Texas is a tough place to grow up in general. It's made me a bit jaded as well so I get why this would be a very hot button topic for you. This is not a very progressive state at all when it comes to equality or women's rights.
     
  16. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    No, I didn't realize that- because I didn't interpret all of this the same way you do. I took the suggestion to talk about mens issues at face value without using his character to devalue the suggestion. Also, because most of your posts didn't criticize him, they criticized me.

    Honestly, I'm not trying to defend some random UK politician I know nothing about- maybe he really is a terrible person in a lot of people's eyes, but I don't care about that. I'm talking strictly about the fact that the mere mention of mens issues caused laughter- and I think that's a problem. That had nothing to do with who stated them, or whatever other context you want to surround that with. I don't care if his suggestion was "token" or motivated by some form of sexism- I don't know enough about him to make that judgement, and I don't feel it's relevant. If it results in legitimate useful conversation for someone, then the history of the person that suggested it doesn't matter, in my opinion. None of what I've said is about him, it's about the discussion of mens issues, and how in some personal experiences, I've seen some (not all) interpretations of feminism preventing that discussion from happening. Not all the time, but it happens- and when it does, I see it as problematic for everyone.

    Thus our argument. Don't assume everyone shares your values or point of view, because it's often not the case.
     
  17. Xaios

    Xaios Foolish Mortal Contributor

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    Any movement or belief can be co-opted and used as a platform for loud-mouthed extremists while the silent majority of that movement stay, well, silent. That doesn't invalidate the whole movement. It is the RESPONSIBILITY of reasonable people to sift through the bull.... covering the surface to the kernel at core of that movement's ideology and decide on their own whether or not it's worth supporting. This woman who likely identifies as a feminist (based on the contextual information available) made a comment in very poor taste. That, however, doesn't make feminism evil. It just means that, like every other belief on the face of the earth, it's adherents are human and subject to their own biases that may or may not stand against the core of what they identify as.
     
  18. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    I'd just like to point out that if someone has previously looked up various search terms through Google, then Google offers related combinations when something identical or similar is entered.

    Going further, if someone uses a Google product like Gmail on two different computers using the same user name, Google will look at the computer's cookies and assume that the user is the same person, and will offer the same personalized choices on both machines.

    As to what search terms in the past would have led Google to combine those particular search terms in the current time... what do each of you think?
     
  19. Ibanezsam4

    Ibanezsam4 SS.org Regular

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    The GOP are the party of Lincoln, yet now members are frequently labeled as being on the wrong side of racial progress.

    as time goes on paradigms evolve and needs for certain institutions and conventions go by the wayside. hence why more western women eschew the label (polls and data exist to back this up, use google).

    in this day in age simply agreeing with the base tenants of feminism aren't enough to be considered a feminist in the elite circles of thought (academia), much like not murdering, stealing, and following the 8 other commandments aren't enough to be Christian.

    are there plenty of divergent thoughts within the movement? Sure. Camille Paglia technically exists in the same big tent as Gloria Steinem, but one is held up as a figurehead and a hero of the movement where the other.. well i bet most will have to google Camille to find out.

    popular media and policy makers have picked which thread of feminism represents the movement; to the detriment of the whole because people are voting with their feet on this issue.

    i say revive the idea of humanism. its a generic enough label so that the big tent could actually function.
     

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