How should we stop the rich from cheating?

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by vilk, Dec 29, 2015.

  1. Rev2010

    Rev2010 Contributor

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    Well that's something we agree on. I think society's distribution of pay is so far out of whack and causing so many problems. Like CEO's, why do they earn in one year what it takes the company's average employee 250+ years to make? But that's a different topic in whole and my point with billionaires was more aligned toward the genius that invents something that changes the world and all of society. For example, I think if someone invented teleportation and made it easily affordable that person would deserve the billions. But I think you and 7 strings of hate here are turning it more into a debate about utopian society values vs capitalism based society values and that's not something I have any care to get into. I will say one thing though, for a Utopian society we literally need to change human nature for it to have any dream of coming to fruition.


    Rev.
     
  2. Konfyouzd

    Konfyouzd Dread-I Master Contributor

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    We pay property tax on cars in my state which definitely do NOT go up in value. Anything over a certain value we get taxed to own.

    Well maybe not everything but we do pay on things that depreciate.
     
  3. Rev2010

    Rev2010 Contributor

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    This part of your argument seems counter to your argument. The government is the one taking money out of people's hand solely because they can. Not sure what you meant by this so apologies if I just misread your statement.

    All these things said, why do you guys suddenly think the government taking more money from the people equals it being redistributed to the people? When have you seen that happen? Seems to me the government borrows and overspends at an exponentially alarming rate and I don't see the general middle class and poor benefitting from it. Many billionaires however, at least a number of them, have become major philanthropists.


    Rev.
     
  4. sevenstringj

    sevenstringj Banned

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    Math. Take ebay for example. CEO salary ~$1,000,000. # of employees = 36500 (wow, I had no idea). If you were to strip his entire salary & redistribute it to employees, 1000000/36500 = $27. Even if you include his stock options and shit, it's about 13000000/36500 = $356. I'm sure most could use an extra $356, but it probably falls short of what people imagine redistribution would accomplish.
     
  5. Rev2010

    Rev2010 Contributor

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    That's assuming the company has that many employees for one. And for two, I wasn't really considering redistributing the excess into each employees salary, just making note of how over inflated their salaries are. The cost of those salaries are often passed onto the consumers/customers. But I like your point still :)

    *edit - just wanted to add something. Hillary Clinton made mention of this exact thing in one of the first democratic debates this year. She wants to tax the rich more, she says the Wallstreet fat cats. Let me ask, how many of you really believe she'll do that when she's president? And we all know she will be the next president. I seriously doubt that will happen and I personally think she's using that rhetoric for votes. Sorry for the OT.


    Rev.
     
  6. Grindspine

    Grindspine likes pointy things

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    The gap will eventually become so wide between the ultra-rich and everyone else that social upheaval will occur.

    History has shown that pattern so many times. I just wonder if it will occur in our lifetimes.

    The advent of credit made created a "middle class" where people spend as if rich, though they are indebted for life. This is only a buffer that postpones the inevitable conflict between the rich and the poor.

    At thirty-seven years old, I realize that I will likely never pay off my student loans, own house and property, or ever truly be financially comfortable. That is with working three non entry level jobs and typically clocking fifty-five to sixty-five hours per work week. My student loan debt gains interest faster than I can afford to pay it. If I live to seventy, I will not have paid off the debts I accrued as a college student.

    This economy is hopeless. It is only a matter of time before people become violent about it.
     
  7. Vrollin

    Vrollin SS.org Regular

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    We all saw The Dark Knight Rises.... Make it so....
     
  8. lelandbowman3

    lelandbowman3 SS.org Regular

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    I'm not posting this to discredit anything posted in this thread, but it shows that the issue is never as black and white as we think.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=661pi6K-8WQ

    It's good in terms of what it would take in terms of taxing the 1% and how the idea sounds nice, but it's not economically feasible.
     
  9. TedintheShed

    TedintheShed SS.org Regular

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    As long as a person does not steal or defraud another person to obtain their wealth, I am of the belief that a person is entitled to as much wealth as they may muster.

    A am anti-popular sovereignty and pro-individual sovereignty. No tax is just. Here is a thought expereiment to illustrate:


    Thus, taxation in tantamount to extortion.
     
  10. Sumsar

    Sumsar SS.org Regular

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    :lol: You Americans and the way you see goverment as this evil guy who comes in the night to steal all your money and guns :lol:
     
  11. Konfyouzd

    Konfyouzd Dread-I Master Contributor

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    Is the How Many Men thing really applicable? Don't we technically agree to taxes in some way shape or form whether we agree with the concept or not? The number of things we're taxed on, I sometimes have a problem with, but I do believe that by agreeing to work in the US you're also agreeing to the taxes levied on your income. I could be wrong about that.
     
  12. _MonSTeR_

    _MonSTeR_ SS.org Regular

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    As soon as taxes get too high, those with real wealth leave for somewhere more favourable. The same goes for business, make it unfavourable and your jobs go overseas, it's all balancing act. Those clever enough to sort it out usually are also clever enough to realise that instead of sorting it out, they can use it to get rich themselves... Then it becomes a case of how altruistic are they?
     
  13. Grindspine

    Grindspine likes pointy things

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    That is bad logic: see "slippery slope argument".

    Conversely, if the richest are allowed to horde, it leaves nothing for the poorest until they starve, leaving a starving work force. If they starve to the point of death, there is no work force to support the rich. The slippery slope can work both ways.

    Throw in Kant's Universal Law theorem and we can propose if all citizens pay what they can afford (per Bentham and Mills' point of utility), society would continue to prosper.
     
  14. Ibanezsam4

    Ibanezsam4 SS.org Regular

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    if you kept track of many civil liberties are violated every day in the name of security you would be averse to government growth too

    its not. and the dirty secret is the wealthy are part of political class. many lawmakers on the national level have cashed in since being elected. so of course they write loopholes to the laws to protect their own wealth and interests.
     
  15. will_shred

    will_shred not that good.

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    I think that a billionare tax is a great idea honestly. Nobody, NOBODY needs more than a billion dollars. Past that point I think that a single person cannot efficently allocate that much money in a way the produces a social utility. I'm sure that some people will say "Taxation is theft, blah blah blah" to that I say, grow the hell up. If you can see beyond your own self interest, you might start to understand that one's actions can negatively impact those around you. Also, such a wealth tax may prevent too much power from being concentrated in to few hands. The question isn't how to put good people into power, because positions of power will always attract those who are willing to cut throats to get there. The question is how do we make sure that those in power fear a backlash against the working class enough so that they are less likely to try and screw us one way or another.

     
  16. will_shred

    will_shred not that good.

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    some people do think that way, which is unfortunate. However the US government has, in fact, been hijacked by an extremely corrupt ruling class, who, in a rapidly changing society, are determined to preserve their hegemony no matter the social or environmental cost. At this point I don't think that's really even a debatable issue. I think many people who are typically "anti big government" are most often the one's who are opposing regulations to protect the working class, in favor of deregulation which directly benefits the ruling class and harms the welfare of the working class. Our government has been extremely wasteful in its spending, there's no question about that either. Just look at how private military contractors abused their contracts with the government, or how the financial institutions held hostage the retirements and pensions of millions of working class people in order to get the fed to bail them out to the tune of over one trillion dollars. However, that wasteful spending can almost always be traced back to someone (usually a private company contracting with a government agency) making a .... ton of money off of that waste.

     
  17. Sumsar

    Sumsar SS.org Regular

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    Well to me that is a smaller problem as I live in Denmark.

    We have similar problems though. In the last 15 years our national politications have increasingly lost touch with reality and live in their own little bubble world where they think that rich people are the only ones who have and create value in society, and alot of them seem to be of the actual opinion that the poor, the imigrants, the refugees and a big part of the middle class should just be put in camps and killed and then the nation would be much better off.

    Denmark used to be one of the richest countries in the world. We used to be a peacefull nation, who was leading on enviromental matters, had an extremely low poverty rate and where producing value through education and knowledge, and who supported human rights and liberty.

    But yeah, our politicians has spent the last 15 years flushing all those good and noble things down the toilet.
     
  18. asher

    asher So Did We

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    sevenstringj: in reality, any CEO is making millions more than just his salary, through signing bonuses, other packages, and golden parachutes.

    Fun fact #1: the majority of the very top richest people inherited all their wealth. How do we feel about that? They personally didn't work for it.

    Fun fact #2: flat taxes are actually quite regressive, and hurt the lowest rungs of society far more than the upper rungs.
     
  19. Ibanezsam4

    Ibanezsam4 SS.org Regular

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    This is one of the crazier-but-convincing solutions to this problem. An economist at Cornell came up with the idea of a "steeply progressive consumption tax"

    his plan as he explains it would cut down the lower income tax burden while ratcheting up rates on the rich all while encouraging more people to save money.

    its a fun read if anything

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/07/b...8a&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink
     
  20. Mike

    Mike The Traveler Contributor

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    Flat tax is still not fair though. Think of it like this. I make $10,000 a year and you make $10,000,000 a year. We both pay our flat tax rate of (for the sake of this made up scenario) 40%. I have $6,000 left which is near impossible to survive on and you still have $6,000,000 left. More than any person would ever need in a year. Basically the point I'm trying to make is even though the percent is equal, the dollar value taken hurts a lot less when you have a lot more.
     

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