gun control ?

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by mongey, Oct 5, 2017.

  1. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

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    Excellent point. I suppose we should just get rid of all the laws since after all criminals don't follow them.
     
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  2. KnightBrolaire

    KnightBrolaire tinkerer/aspiring builder/8 string hoarder

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    See the problem is defining the capacity and whether it's an internal or external magazine. If we say "all external magazines are illegal" then a lot of hunting rifles are actually affected (like my mini-14 I use for squirrels). If we restrict capacity to 5 shots or less for mags sold in stores, how do we prevent secondhand sales or fabrication of higher capacity magazines? It's a difficult issue since more regulations aren't going to affect people intent on not following them to begin with. Restricting magazine size wouldn't be effective as far as I can tell. Granted it depends on the individual shooter, since motivated/better trained shooters would be able to mag swap quickly/fabricate their own high capacity magazines. With less trained/motivated shooters, sure. In that instance having smaller magazines would limit the amount of people they'd be able to shoot.
     
  3. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

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    Like a high school student, for example!
     
  4. KnightBrolaire

    KnightBrolaire tinkerer/aspiring builder/8 string hoarder

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    Yeah, smaller mags might mitigate crimes of passion/impulsive shootings to an extent, but for planned shootings I wouldn't expect it to have as much impact.
     
  5. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

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    I wonder if there is any way we could try to look through convicted/dead/recorded mass shooters and figure out what ratio of them had the means and knowledge to fabricate extra large magazines from scratch...
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
  6. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    I mean, people can make bombs out of household cleaning products that could, in theory be just as deadly. I think using a gun is more "convenient" for the killer, if I can say that without sounding too calloused. In my mind, there is no doubt that people not having easy access to guns would significantly reduce the number of shootings, but there is also no doubt in my mind that it'd never eliminate shootings, either.

    This American idea that a person pulling a gun out to shoot a bunch of people could be easily stopped by just everyone having a gun is not entirely true and not entirely false. It could, theoretically, work, but there are practical reasons why it doesn't usually actually work IRL.

    There's also this knee-jerk that anytime something bad happens, we need to stop it from happening again by whatever means possible, which is what got us into weird stuff like the Patriot Act. :shrug:
     
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  7. smokiekouki

    smokiekouki SS.org Regular

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    Yeah, since that makes a lot of sense. Every liberal says that.

    There are too many guns available in the black market. It would just come down to the bad guys having more fire power than the law abiding citizen. I want to be able to protect my family. It's only fair I have access to similar guns that they do.
     
  8. KnightBrolaire

    KnightBrolaire tinkerer/aspiring builder/8 string hoarder

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    Magazines are stupidly easy to make if they have some machining skills or they own a 3d printer/miller. It's literally just some welded sheet metal (or plastic) with a spring in it at its most basic. Here's an example of a completely DIY submachine gun made in england :
     
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  9. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

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    Oh, I've never been to a black market. Do they have a pretty nice one in Shreveport?

    Fun Factoid: Lethal Weapon isn't based on a true story, and Mel and Danny are paid Hollywood actors.
     
  10. n4t

    n4t SS.org Regular

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    Gun Control is a tiresome and insipid debate that has already played itself out. THAT is why you are not seeing more of it.

    I'd guess a LARGE number of Americans own guns. The ONE guy who shoots up a public space does not represent them. You know who he represents? The massive hole in availability of Mental Health Care in this Shit Country staring in 1973 and progressively getting worse. Today qualified help is almost completely unavailable. We are reaping what we have sown.

    America is a TOXIC place to live. Health care has been so watered down since I was young that it is almost unbelievable. There is no safety and security for anyone in this country by default. The 'American Family' that we have long depended on for our support and well-being of the citizen is a thing of the past, rendered pitiful by our own capitalist elites and government and their self-enrichment policies. It is a nasty shit pile and getting worse as the demographic and economic situation is changing and many people are not changing with it (eg Donald Trump voters).

    These deaths are the cost of doing business in the United States, and until that cost is lowered the deaths will occur by gun or by dumptruck full of weaponized fertilizer.

    Now let's all please stop the stupid.
     
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  11. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    It's also stupid to essentially define mental illness as the thing that "people who shoot up public spaces" have. It just feels like a strategy to shift the blame away from the obvious solution of tight gun control, and forcing an either-or decision. "Give up my guns? Jeez, this wouldn't even be a problem if our FAILING HEALTHCARE SYSTEM could just make everyone happy and non-violent!"

    I don't see any downside to trying multiple policy solutions.

    btw, there might not be a big black market for guns if we weren't producing tens of millions of them to keep track of every year...
     
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  12. n4t

    n4t SS.org Regular

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    My post was clear in that the US is a toxic place to live for ALL the reasons I discussed, leading to despair and rage, and with few and disappearing options for help. I meant that in every conceivable way. Sorry you didn't seem to understand the post at all - but plowed on with your ignorant agenda of discussing 'blame' and reducing things to a single, narrow-minded view. Your assessment is false and irrelevant, and you are part of the problem.

    See? Some people will never be able to understand. Why participate in debate or discussion.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
  13. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    I can happily say that I agree with you 100% here.

    We need to stop telling ourselves that we should not look at our gun control laws until after we look at our mental health crisis epidemic, or vice-versa. These problems go hand-in-hand, and need to both be addressed, along with other related issues, like security at these events, and how easily law enforcement can access the area without compromising safety. I think the fact that the conversation has historically always steered itself into red-vs-blue just goes to prove why nothing ever gets done.
     
  14. smokiekouki

    smokiekouki SS.org Regular

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    Apparently you've never heard of the dark web. It's a thing. You can literally buy ANYTHING if you really wanted to.
    Also, in America, a gun is stolen almost every minute. That's a shit ton of illegal guns floating around. Yeah, laws will totally keep that from happening because there's not already a law for theft..

    Law's also seem to be working fantastically for illegal drugs too. Get real.

    64,000 over dose deaths in 2016 vs 33,636 fatal gun shots wounds.

    My honest opinion is the deep state is trying to disarm us. The one world order is coming. Maybe not in our life time, but soon.
     
  15. steinmetzify

    steinmetzify CHUG & SLUDGE

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    These threads always devolve into yelling and he said she said crap, because shouting opposite opinions at each other on an Internet forum on such an inflammatory topic never works.

    You always have people from countries that don’t allow guns and didn’t grow up with them screaming at the Americans that want to have guns that it’s a bad idea and the only thing that works is gun control.

    Gun control can’t work in the US, not like it does in the UK or Australia.

    Somewhere between 5-10 times the population in the US means more problems and more guns.

    Some people seem to think it’s as simple as making laws that take away all guns. The only people that will punish is the people that follow laws anyway. There would always be people that don’t give up their guns; those are the people that commit crimes using them, not law abiding gun owners.

    Gun control can’t and doesn’t work. Not to mention the fact that all the pols screaming for gun control want it to be selective; they want to be in charge of who gets to carry what (meaning they want to outlaw certain firearms for the general populace but let their security details continue to carry them) and that’s crap. That kind of thing is a personal/professional agenda, and the kind of crap Feinstein has been pushing for years without getting anywhere, and she never will.
     
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  16. oc616

    oc616 Control Deck Wins

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    Yup, the same crossroads as ever. Which means America will stay at that crossroads forever too. Either you want it to change more than you want to have access to the level of recreational firearm use you currently do, or you are happier knowing you have guns whilst keeping the level of lethality we saw in Vegas possible by one individual. Pull whatever mental gymnastics you like to fall on either side of that issue, that's where you are.

    My guess: The "Protagonist" culture of the US will keep this stalemate riding out as long as it exists.
     
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  17. steinmetzify

    steinmetzify CHUG & SLUDGE

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    So what’s your solution?

    Buy back program? Government can’t afford it.

    Americans voluntarily giving up their guns? Law abiding American gun owners don’t see it as a gun problem, because we as law abiding gun owners would never commit such a heinous crime.

    Something else?
     
  18. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    Federal database, mandatory registration of all guns, and make failing to report the sale or theft of a gun within, say, thirty days a federal offense. What's the problem?

    And yet, we still have laws. Weird.

    As an interesting corollary, with no laws, no one is a criminal. Maybe that's a way to stop people from breaking laws!

    "...would we start regulating commercial driver licenses?" Um, we do regulate commercial driver licenses. Becoming a commercial driver is significantly harder than becomiing a gun owner in this country. And I have yet to hear a story about someone using a truck to kill or wound about 600 people out of sight in a hotel room a quarter mile away, with no warning, such that it takes the police 12 minutes to even determine where the [strike]gunfire[/i] truck is coming from.

    Paddock was a law-abiding citizen, right up to the moment he pulled the trigger.

    I've talked about gun control on this board and on MG for more than a decade now with various members, and over time I've gradually become more sympathetic to the concerns of law-abiding gun owners. However, I think Vegas, Sandy Hook, and the Pulse shooting were, for me, the point where the conversation jumped the shark. The fact that we could have someone shoot up a school or a night club, and the best the right was willing to come up with was "thoughts and prayers" means that we as a nation are incapable of making any meaningful changes to protect the lives of our fellow citizens.

    So, honestly, I've come back around - I want the 2nd Amendment repealed. I'm not advocating a total ban on gun ownership, I've just become convinced that until gun owners are willing to come to the table and talk about ways we can make things better, we're going to continue to live in a world where one man can maim or kill 600 people from a hiding spot a quarter mile away in a span of ten minutes, and that this will never happen until gun ownership in this country is a privilege, not a right.

    It's usually framed slightly differently, but it's a well-known truism that you can't negotiate with someone who believes they have nothing to use. So, let's pull away that safety net and make gun owners have some skin in the game here.
     
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  19. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    I think I agree with your thinking, but just to clarify, we do have gun control in the USA, as in, there are controls in place over obtaining a gun, in most cases. And gun control does work, just not in any absolute way. Maybe not even in a very effective way. But something that's only intended to be nominally effective is not going to be much better than nominally effective.

    Maybe the whole gun control thing will be a moot argument anyway, if our culture gets wiped out by nuclear or biological weapons. I don't think it'd do any good to shoot an ICBM or a plague virus. I think I'd rather have a couple surface-to-air missiles and my own fully equipped epidemiology lab than a stockpile of .223" calibur rifles and an underground bunker full of bullets. But when I'm so much more likely to be run over by a car, neither one of them will really likely ever come in handy.
     
  20. oc616

    oc616 Control Deck Wins

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    Something needs to change culturally in the thought process of those individuals who hold "me being punished" over "lessening the death counts and frequency" as gospel. Less of an obsession with the individual and how important they are, more of an emphasis on how they impact others. Taking some damn initiative and social responsibility rather than approaching their societal issues with "well I didn't do anything wrong did I?" If this sounds like I'm describing how one would try to get through to a moody adolescent, don't worry, there is no mistake.

    Do I think this is realistic? No, they aren't going to listen, and why should they? They already have want they want, someone's trying to take it from them. BOOM! Victim card.
     
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