Genocide in Gaza. Shame

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by chopeth, Jul 12, 2014.

  1. Randy

    Randy Ooh, Degrasse Tyson-son Super Moderator

    Messages:
    19,787
    Likes Received:
    2,406
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2006
    Location:
    The Electric City, NY
    I'll conceit that I've been ascribing opinions to you without allowing you the chance to actually voice them. I'll try to avoid doing that.

    If the accusation is that their bosses were authorizing the indefinite detention of people and willfully killing droves of civilians, I'm not entirely sure how much of an effect bringing up those points to those same people would have. The chain of command goes all the way to the top and, if his fiery rhetoric is any indication, I doubt Netanyahu would be particularly surprised/disgusted by what these whistleblowers claim is happening (much like GWB legalizing waterboarding when it was brought to his attention, rather than outlawing it). That is an opinion, since we have no way of knowing one way or another.

    That said, I haven't seen any indication that they haven't brought these concerns up with officials. I also would assume that, if these things are occurring, the people writing the letter would be the tip of the iceberg compared to the number of formal complaints sent to officials (considering the accusations are so glaring). Considering the practice is purported to have continued all the way up until now and I haven't heard about any sweeping changes or repercussions to these accusations, it may be reasonably safe to assume a significant number of complaints/reports have been swept under the rug. This is also an opinion.

    At this point, it's all speculation. I have my own hypothesis, everyone else is entitled to their own.
     
  2. Crabface

    Crabface SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    244
    Likes Received:
    33
    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2013
    Location:
    Cambridge, England
    Fair Enough. :yesway:
     
  3. Skyblue

    Skyblue SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    1,334
    Likes Received:
    72
    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2010
    Location:
    Israel
    Somehow I get to post here only when it's late for me and I should be in bed already, but still:

    I'll try to address a few subjects here, from a standpoint of someone who both lives in Israel and knows several people who served in the aforementioned intelligence unit.

    For the matter of bringing it up to their commanders or going straight to the public with it- Both would probably won't do much. If the issue at hand is the fact of the indefinite detentions, or the recruitment of informants, then we are talking state-level decisions here, not a commander's decision. I'm guessing it's not even up to the Head of Israeli Intelligence to decide if that is being done or not. The "correct" thing to do would be to approach their commanders first, through the officials channels of doing so, and afterwards take it to the media. Would it matter much? probably not. But really- neither did the letter.
    As for your doubt if the subject was brought in front of officials first, Randy- I have not heard so far any evidence to support either claim, aside for the IDF's official response, in which they claim no approach was made before the letter was published. Whether we should trust that or not- who knows. I don't take it as a great assurance, myself.

    As for their status as "Whistleblowers", the more I think of it I kind of don't really see anything surprising or new in what they said. Israel spying on people in the Gaza strip? not really news. It does the same in different countries as well, and so is the rest of the world. The fact that it uses the intelligence it gathers to recruit informants, kill Hamas officials or as evidence in detentions- I can't say I was "aware" of that, but I also can't claim it's surprising in any way. The main thing the people who wrote the letter brought into the eyes of the public is that serving in intelligence units can still be filled with moral dilemmas, something which is not really known to most people as they recruit, since intelligence units are considered to be a sterile place, devoid of such conflicts.

    I would also wonder is usage of intelligence such as recruiting informants and targeted killings of sorts are shunned upon in the rest of the world- they never really struck me like something so outrageous, and I wonder if it's because I live here and I'm used to it or is it really not that much of a big deal- considering we ARE talking Intelligence here.

    Take notice I excluded the detentions from that last paragraph- I'm not supporting indefinite detentions, but I lack the knowledge about the whole subject to argue on that point, so I won't.

    And again, I'm not really Pro-letter or Anti-letter here, just giving my 2c about the matter, after reading some comments.
     
  4. Randy

    Randy Ooh, Degrasse Tyson-son Super Moderator

    Messages:
    19,787
    Likes Received:
    2,406
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2006
    Location:
    The Electric City, NY
    As a liberal American, I can tell you there absolutely is significant concern over data collection and targeted killings. To some people it's not but to me and others, absolutely it is.
     

Share This Page