Genocide in Gaza. Shame

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by chopeth, Jul 12, 2014.

  1. shneakypete

    shneakypete SS.org Regular

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    I thought the whole point of an open forum was to engage in thoughtful dialogue, representing multiple viewpoints on an issue. I have also tried to be respectful and factual, while offering an unpopular alternative viewpoint. I would never intentionally make a personal attack in a debate. I would like to believe that we can debate these topics and still be friends at the end of the day. I enjoy these discussions and I enjoy hearing other peoples' opinions. If you can provide resources that you think would sway my opinion one way or another, please do so. I would love to hear it.

    Unfortunately, even though a ceasefire is currently in effect, I am sure we haven't seen the end of this conflict. We can only hope for the sake of the many innocent people caught in the middle of this that the leadership will seek a path of peaceful resolution.

    I apologize for derailing the thread. Carry on.
     
  2. Crabface

    Crabface SS.org Regular

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    I cant tell if you're being sarcastic or not, so I'll assume you arent for the sake of not causing more arguments.

    I never took any of what you said personally nor did i suggest that,, so im bit sure where you got that idea from. If i unintentionally did suggest that then i apologise.
    Forums absolutely are for thoughtful dialogue, however i think most peolle who have partaken in this thread will agree that practically every viewpoint has been dicussed intensively so far in this thread and bringing them up again just seems to make things a little more heated than necessary. (Again, i am simply assuming as it is certainly how i feel and based on the responses it seems like some others may feel the same way. I may be tptally wrong).
    Although that may not be intentional, making accusations which are not wholly accurate tends to result in negative reactions.

    I will agree with your last paragraph. This unfortunately is absolutely not the end of the conflict.
     
  3. Overtone

    Overtone SS.org Regular

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    Which side of the debate should we be asking that question? Only one side? Or both sides?


    [​IMG]

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...l0HM-3arN1pI_xn6PscNhG52c/edit#gid=1450129886
     
  4. Thorerges

    Thorerges SS.org Regular

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    Israel's existence and expansion into Palestine is the largest living example of unprovoked aggression.
     
  5. Crabface

    Crabface SS.org Regular

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    Cool.
     
  6. shneakypete

    shneakypete SS.org Regular

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    No sarcasm here my friend. I didn't directly accuse you of taking anything personally. I was simply trying to paint a picture for you. I've come to this forum with an open mind and respect for everyone who chooses to participate.

    While the points that I have been trying to make have likely been expressed repeatedly in this thread, I have yet to actively participate myself. Based on the posts that I read, I felt compelled to share my sentiments on this topic. My remarks were not intended to be inflammatory in nature. My intent was to simply share some facts.

    This is all irrelevant to the topic of this thread. So I won't say anymore on that.
     
  7. Grand Moff Tim

    Grand Moff Tim Some call me... Tim

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    To be fair, if you had come in and repeated pro-Israel sentiments that had already been expressed in this thread several times, he probably wouldn't have complained :lol:.
     
  8. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    I do recall, over a few decades, all the communications and references to Israel never being by name. Instead, it was simply referred to as, "the aggression."

    Also historically, the maps of the anti-Israel groups have shown the region as without any Israel whatsoever.

    So I'm going to answer that just by existing, Israel is an act of provocation.

    Did I give the correct answer?
     
  9. Crabface

    Crabface SS.org Regular

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    I wasnt complaining about the sentiments he was expressing, i simply said that reopening the discussion seemed a little needless. Again, thats just my opinion and you're free to disagree with me.
    You may notice that that i havent argued a single point he made, even though i disagree with some of them. Im simply tired of it in general.
     
  10. shneakypete

    shneakypete SS.org Regular

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    :noplease: So we are on a forum! The whole point is to discuss things, right? :idea:

    I would rather you actually argue with me on the points that I was trying to make, rather than argue with me on the validity of reopening what you deem to be needless discussion. Maybe we should open a thread just to talk about that - that validity of reopening needless discussion. I don't want to break forum rules by continuing to post off-topic responses in this thread.

    I would enjoy more thoughtful discussion on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. So feel free to post up some information or sources that you think might sway my opinion either way.
     
  11. Crabface

    Crabface SS.org Regular

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    Youre right. Apologies. Wasnt really in my place to request not to reopen the discussion. I may post a response to your opinions later when have the time.
     
  12. Overtone

    Overtone SS.org Regular

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    Happened to see your profile after checking out blackwater thread cuz I am curious what shop you did go with...

    see this:

    Pos rep - "Genocide in Gaza. Shame 08-28-2014 03:34 PM Made me laugh. - Explorer"


    I'm calling shenanigans!

    And Explorer are you referring to Hamas never saying "Israel" or all Palestinian politicians? Because I know that Abbas referred to "Israel" many times.
     
  13. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    If you click on the link regarding each piece of rep, it will take you to the post which received the rep.

    In this case, it was this particular part of the dicussion which made me laugh.

     
  14. Overtone

    Overtone SS.org Regular

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    I guess what I mean is for those of us not up to snuff on Islamic scholars, myself included, that would have gone way over their head. Tbh I only listened to about ten seconds of his speech, so I don't even know how far he went with what he was starting to say. Seemed like the same old inability to compromise or live in the present. There is something to be said for never forgetting that the genesis of the situation was unjust (if one believes it to be so), but it doesn't offer answers to anybody hoping to look forward, except perhaps to never stop believing you deserve something more.

    But really my question was meant to be "why is that guy relevant and who does he speak for?" It seemed settled but now I'm realizing that may have been a joke all along?
     
  15. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    There have been, and always will be those who use religion to justify violence and killing. Some Christians are okay with killing abortion doctors and democratically elected foreign presidents, some Mormons want us to take up arms in violent bloody revolution against the US government if same sex marriage is legalized, some Muslims want to kill those who aren't Muslim enough for them, as well as killing all the Jews and destroying Israel. Even the gentle Baha'i are not free of the blood lust.

    Whether those who say that they belong to a faith actually do or not is a different discussion, but many times, others in that same faith don't speak out against those who are are pretty nuts.

    The "Drive Israel into the sea, kill all the Jews" is a well worn trope in the Muslim world. I laughed because Thorerges' comment, that this guy was kind of literal, could actually be true for some sections of certain societies while still be advocating for killing all the Jews and destroying Israel.

    If you're dismayed that someone could say such a thing and be considered liberal in some parts of that society, I agree with you.

    If you're dismayed that a true situation might have attention brought to it, I don't have any helpful suggestions.

    ----

    One more thing: I was kidding about the gentle Baha'i having that kind of tendency. I just tossed that in there because sometimes people say, but you don't understand that this is a peaceful tradition! Most folks read my joke about the Baha'i and dismissed it as false, because that kind of behavior isn't demonstrated by the Baha'i.

    And by giving an example of how a religion of peace looks when judged by the actions of those who claim to be its followers, I hopefully have stopped people finding different and novel definitions of "peaceful" when applied to religion.
     
  16. Overtone

    Overtone SS.org Regular

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    So this guy specifically mentioned killing? I only got as far as him talking about eliminating the state.

    My gripe to spell is out is that for the sake of this discussion, this guy was passed off as liberal and well known, jokingly or otherwise, which doesn't sound accurate.
     
  17. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    I have some quick questions, and then an observation.

    If a man said he wanted to erase his ex-wife from the earth... what would the average person understand that to mean?

    What about if a jury in a murder trial, in a court of law, heard that the accused wanted to "erase" the victim? What would they conclude?

    If al Qaeda wanted to erase the US, what would you take that to mean regarding the citizens of the US? That they would just be shipped elsewhere? Or that erasing the US would also mean erasing the people of which that country is constituted?

    Now, you have a region where the rhetoric has been about eliminating the Jews, and it's been that way for decades in some places there.

    So why would you assume that "erasing" Israel is suddenly divorced from the concept of killing off those Jews?

    And now the observation: One would either have to be completely unknowledgable of human relations in general, and of this particular aspect of Israel hatred in specific to suddenly not understand what is being talked about..., or one would have to be a little disingenuous. Assuming that you joined SS.org at the age of 14, you'd only be 19 or 20 now, so hopefully you're just in college and haven't learned enough about the world, and the history

    I'm sorry if you really haven't experienced enough of the world to be able to understand what "erase" could mean in such a context. It's not helped by the fact that most English-language media doesn't translate a lot of what comes out of that part of the world. However, here's a website which has some translated videos, so you can learn a little bit more. Happy viewing!

    Kill Jews for Allah | PMW
     
  18. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    I've been thinking since my last post, and I wonder if the perceived problem is that folks are engaging in black humor about a horrible fact of life, that there is a huge amount of "Kill the Jews!" in some cultures.

    If it's about people engaging in black humor to take the edge off unpleasant facts of life, I don't think there's a remedy for that. People tend to do that when confronted with something horrible.

    If it's that you don't believe that something horrible is happening, that some horrible mindset hasn't existed for a long time... well, I don't think there's really a remedy for that either. Reality exists no matter how much one denies it, even if someone might squeeze their eyes shut and beg a higher power to change the rules of that reality. Amputees don't regrow limbs just because they beg for things to magically change.
     
  19. Overtone

    Overtone SS.org Regular

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    You did say "erase could mean killing" (emphasis added). I'm not saying that it couldn't. I'm saying that it might not mean that. There are Jews who do not believe Israel should be a Jewish state. But very certainly they do not expect the residents to meet such a fate as you are describing. It should not go hand in hand that if a person strongly believes that there should not have been the state of Israel and they continue to disagree with its existence, that they mean "death to the Jews". When they get into he whole "drive them into the sea" thing, that's definitely not ambiguous.

    To sum it up, even though I personally know it's not possible to "undo" history and it's not an appropriate or ethical solution to focus on, I think it narrows the spectrum of opinion and distorts facts to label anyone outspoken against the state of Israel as a concept or as a government as being a genocide advocate.

    And again, that's not really even why I brought him up again, it's to say that it seems disingenuous for this guy to have been passed off as liberal in this conversation if he isn't known for that.
     
  20. Overtone

    Overtone SS.org Regular

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    I'm not going to even bother with those other vids because I don't contest that there are those who do want to kill whatever Jews are in Israel. But focusing on the original one, let's look at some translations used in the captions vs how those words are translated.

    00:23
    captions: "eradicated"
    google translate: تزول first answer "disappear", other meanings "evaporate, pass away, recede, taper"
    real meaning is a verb of that... "to make disappear", "to cause to evaporate", "to cause to pass away" (seems a strange choice of words for a state/country "dawlat") etc.
    if you look for a translation of eradicate into Arabic, none of the results are the word he actually said.
    https://translate.google.com/?ie=UTF-8&hl=en&client=tw-ob#en/ar/eradicate

    So on that, eradicate is not a very good translation at all.

    The better translation for "bow before us" is "kneel before us", but close enough. In both cases " we demand that the rockets continue to be launched until they bow before us" is different than " we demand that the rockets continue to be launched until they are all dead." Definitely stops short of that.

    As for this part: "All the mothers of the Islamic nation – not only Palestinian mothers – should suckle their babies on the hatred of the sons of Zion. We hate them. They are our enemies. We should instill this in the souls of our children, until a new generation arises and wipes them off the face of the earth. This is what we want." That is quite an accurate translation, though we have to be clear that he is talking about Zionists, not Jews/Israelis in general. I think he's playing to some of his audience's hateful side while using that rhetoric. He doesn't seem to be someone who has taken that position before, but he seems to hope some people will think he's on their level, and thus be more receptive. After looking him up, this guy is a millionaire off of his TV presence (and little else). It doesn't say much about certain members of his audience that that's what he thinks they want to hear. I think that is somewhat akin to what you described... frustrated people going towards darkness and taking comfort in it. There are definitely those who are not willing to get involved in the issue or fight but say something along the lines of "It were up to me they should die." It's an ignorant and counterproductive thing for this guy to cater to them.

    Still, that's the closest he comes to outright calling for killing - saying to rid the world of Zionists. Doesn't make him not a greedy prick playing to ignorance, but I don't like misrepresentation... finding one thing this one guy said and making it to be so important seems a bit off... is that really the worst they can find, one instance of saying "wipe Zionists from the Earth." Also, wipe from the earth and wipe the floor with are almost interchangeable in Arabic... it usually means to basically totally dominate someone/kick their ass.

    But what has the guy himself said in the past?

    Coincidentally, before I got to the last article, I was curious about the MEMRI site where that was posted since the choice of words in translation at the beginning was more inciting, and because I saw it being posted on websites like Pamela Geller's, who is known for hatred of Muslims. The Wikipedia article has a lot of confirmation of what the TV preacher said:


    "The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) is a not for profit press monitoring organization with headquarters in Washington, D.C. MEMRI publishes and distributes free English language translations of Arabic, Persian, Urdu, Pashto, and Turkish media reports.[1] The institute was co-founded in 1998 by Yigal Carmon, a former Israeli military intelligence officer and Meyrav Wurmser, an Israeli-born, American political scientist. MEMRI states that its goal is to "bridge the language gap that exists between the Middle East and the West". Critics charge that it aims to portray the Arab and Muslim world in a negative light, through the production and dissemination of inaccurate translations and by selectively translating views of extremists while deemphasizing or ignoring mainstream opinions."

    and further on:

    "Accusations of bias[edit]
    Brian Whitaker, the Middle East editor for The Guardian newspaper at the time, wrote in a public email debate with Carmon in 2003, that his problem with MEMRI was that it "poses as a research institute when it's basically a propaganda operation".[5] Earlier, Whitaker had charged that MEMRI's role was to "further the political agenda of Israel." and that MEMRI's website does not mention Carmon's employment for Israeli intelligence, or Meyrav Wurmser's political stance, which he described as an "extreme brand of Zionism".[3]....
    ...Norman Finkelstein has described MEMRI as "a main arm of Israeli propaganda".In 2006, Finkelstein accused MEMRI of editing a television interview he gave in Lebanon in order to falsely impute that he was a Holocaust denier. In an interview with the newspaper In Focus in 2007, he said MEMRI uses "the same sort of propaganda techniques as the Nazis" and "take things out of context in order to do personal and political harm to people they don't like".[42]"

    Middle East Media Research Institute - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    There's more on their selectively wrong translations further down the page, but what I wanted to highlight is that it's not really anything more than a propaganda site founded by a former Israeli intelligence officer.
     

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