Game of Thrones

Discussion in 'Movies, Books, TV & Media' started by flexkill, Mar 31, 2013.

  1. SD83

    SD83 SS.org Regular

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    The other option would be that it wasn't Littlefinger, but Arya posing as him. I was thinking about how that would be a nice twist for the final season, to have Arya kill him off screen between seasons, nobody finds out, and the only major hint would be that the two of them are never in the same shot, and it isn't revealed until episode 4 or 5 or so. But they weren't in the same shot in this episode, so who knows? :D
    That, or Sansa is finally thinking for herself a little more, has her own plans and has learned that what Littlefinger tells you to do is rarely a good idea.
     
  2. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    Littlefinger is the villain of the entire series of events south of the Wall. He was a key actor in Jon Erran's death, orchestrated Ned's manipulation into following the same path, and he's been at least somewhat involved in several other plots since then. To kill him off-screen would be pretty tactless, although, who knows where the show is going at this point.
    I think there might be enough of Bran left in the Three Eyed Raven that it was foreshadowing Littlefinger's demise with the dagger. As much as I'd like to think that Arya will use it against a White Walker at some point, I's really thinking it's more of a revenge thing.
     
  3. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    You know, at first some of the continuity stuff bugged me a little, but at this point, I think I don't care. The writers are basically working off Martin's scribbled notes since he can't be bothered to stop blogging about fantasy football and how much he hates Tom Brady, so if they're playing fast and furious with geography and things like "where can we find giant metal chains beyond the wall" and whatnot, at least we're advancing the plot, you know? :lol:

    I haven't gone back and reread the 80 pages of discussion to get caught up, so maybe someone else has made this argument before, but... On Jon's parentage and the whole R+L=J thing...

    I think we're being trolled. I don't think Jon is Rhaegar's son.

    Couple reasons, and unfortunately I don't have a concrete alternative yet.

    1) The show, for all its coy glances and winks from across the room, still hasn't confirmed it. We have pretty good assurances he's not Ned's son - it's out of character, for one, and while the cut from Lyanna's baby to Jon Snow doesn't prove anything, it's a massive coincidence that Lyanna secretly gives birth right about the time Jon would be born. I think it's reasonably clear that Lyanna was Jon's father. But, importantly (and the NY Times recap was kind of funny about this, running on and on about Jon being a Targaryen while even agknowledging at this point that Bran still hasn't seen a vision showing who Jon's father is, and nonetheless assuming that Lyanna being the mother means Rhaegar is the father), there's no evidence yet that Rhaegar is Jon's father. There's Rhaegar's annulment and remarriage in Dorne, and the Tower of Joy is in Dorne... but, again, that doesn't prove anything. If after all this setup, we get a "hey you guys! Guess what! Rhaegar is Jon's dad!" reveal, well, that's going to be the least-surprising reveal in all of television history. For a series and a show that loves to shock, that just doesn't fit.

    The other thing I'll add:

    2) Littlefinger knows, or claims to know, who Jon's parents are. In fact, for a while I was thinking Littlefinger might have been Jon's father, for this, but I'm less convinced (though it's still possible, and it's not like Littlefinger doesn't have a thing for Stark women and hadn't alluded to certain improprieties with both sisters in the books. And, he very well could be the "him" in the "if robert finds out, he'll kill him" Lyanna whispers). Oddly, however, Varys (the OTHER purveyor of information in Westeros) does NOT know who Jon's parents are, or if he does, he doesn't seem to think he's a Targaryen. If Rhaegar IS Jon's father, then conditionally it becomes far more likely that Lyanna also was the woman he secretly married, and Jon has a better claim to the Targaryen throne than Dany. Jon's appearance in Dragonstone, then, would have been a source of some concern for Varys if he knew Jon was a Targaryen. Additionally, Littlefinger and Varys have at times been allies - if Littlefinger knows, he seems to have had a reason to keep it from Varys. I don't know what to make of this yet, but either Varys also knows and Jon's father isn't a Targaryen, or Littlefinger is keeping a secret here for some reason. Not sure what to make of this yet, but I think it could be important.

    Idunno, I'm still thinking my way through this, but the Lyanna reveal was conspicuous in only confirming one parent yet the whole world immediately assumed both, which seemed odd, and then when Littlefinger seemed to have knowledge, something felt wrong about the theory.
     
  4. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    God points, Drew.
    I think the discussion to be had is why all information about L+R=J would be so strongly teased, but so obviously stop short of coming out and saying it. It seems like they might want us to assume some slight of hand is involved here, and there must be a reason why it is that way.
     
  5. vividox

    vividox SS.org Regular

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    It's still a writing problem, though. If you want to condense plot, fine, condense it, but don't half-ass it.

    Here is what the show did:
    Tyrion/Davos go to King's Landing from Dragonstone. They pick up Gendry and Tyrion has a two minute conversation with Jaime. They go back to Dragonstone. Jon et al go to Eastwatch. They range north. They get surrounded and Gendry runs back. A raven flies from Eastwatch to Dragonstone. Dany flies from Dragonstone to north of Eastwatch and somehow a boat gets up there too.

    Here is what they should have done:
    No one goes to King's Landing. Gendry is fan service and Tyrion doesn't need to meet with Jaime for the crazy ass "Let's get Cersei a wight for Christmas!" plot to work. Jon bends the knee to Dany on the condition that she brings the dragons to help capture a wight. Jon, Dany, dragons, everyone goes to Eastwatch, then north. They fight the white walkers. Everything goes down just like it did in S07E06.

    All you'd lose is the Gendry fan service, the two minute conversation between Tyrion and Jaime, and the infuriating teleportation. Was that really so freakin' hard?
     
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  6. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    Why do you keep calling it fan service? Does Gendry have a huge following online or something? :lol:

    All of the teleporting is a bit annoying, but, honestly, is it make or break for anyone? I think you could knock a star off a review for how silly the teleportation thing is, but if everything else is awesome, I'm going to enjoy the show - and I am.

    I will say, though, that a big portion of my little annoyances with the show are how it's being paced. It seems like things are really kind of rushing now. The first season seemed a little bit rushed, then it seemed like they were taking their time for a little while, and now it feels just a lot more rushed to me. Ultimately, I'm not the one making the show, though, but that's just my feeling about watching it.

    It's still one of the better shows on television, but really, that's not saying much, with how contrived most shows are these days.
     
  7. SD83

    SD83 SS.org Regular

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    I don't see how the Jon/Dany part would work out though. Him bending the knee on Dragonstone would not really fit, but her saying "OK, you bend the knee, and we're off to Eastwatch, dragons and all, how about that?" makes even less sense than teleporting ravens. To me, at least.

    As for fan service: There were a lot of people constantly wondering "Where is Gendry? Is he still rowing?" It all really depends on his part in season 8. Many apparently expected him to die in episode 6, him surviving makes it seem a lot less like fan service but more like he might have a role to play. After all, he is Roberts only surviving child in the show as far as I know (Mya Stone should be in the Vale, but she is not in the show).
     
  8. lewis

    lewis SS.org Regular

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    So Dany loses a dragon but gains Jon Snow to ride instead? Nice.
     
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  9. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    That's pretty much the crux of it, man. You could elaborate all you want, but especially for a show that loves shocks, why dedicate so much time teasing it, when you could be advancing other storylines?

    Another friend of mine I've been talking with this about - and, full disclosure, 90% of the people I know who watch the show tell me I'm crazy for not believing Rhaegar is Jon's father - quipped, "if Rhaegar isn't Jon's father, then it doesn't matter who is, since no one cares he's a bastard anymore." Which is actually a useful filter; if Rhaegar isn't Jon's father, then who his father is DOES matter, and will be important to the plot, since there's no point to it being a surprise just for the hell of it. That's actually another reason to think maybe it IS Littlefinger, since Jon killing Littlefinger is a totally plausible outcome, if Arya doesn't get to him first, seeing as he pretty much IS the major villian of all of he action below the wall.
     
  10. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    Plus, it puts a whole new spin on Littlefinger's motives to show up and save Jon at the Battle of the Bastards and why he's skulking around Winterfell now. I think Little finger makes almost as much sense as Rhaegar, and I love the thought of a second-most obvious outcome, especially when everyone is so assured that the first most likely is definite.

    Plus, half the fun of stories like this is discussing all of the hypothetical stuff like this.
     
  11. vividox

    vividox SS.org Regular

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    Only calling it fan service because the only reason you bring back a character like Gendry is for the sake of nostalgia. Gendry's storyline could have been completely done and it wouldn't have been a problem. There is still the whole kingsblood thread and maybe he can smith a bunch of dragonglass, so it's not like I have a huge problem with him coming back or anything, but it seems like a really run-about way to bring him back into the cast.

    I'm still enjoying the show and I'm finishing it no matter what. I just hate seeing these kinds of inconsistencies in any medium. Plot holes suck. Yeah, it's a bit of a small gripe when you step back and look at the bigger picture, but it's still so insanely easy to avoid. And like you said, it makes this season feel quite a bit different from previous seasons. I'm not here to throw the entire series out or anything.
     
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  12. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    ^ Agreed.

    To me, though, it seemed like they strongly led us to believe Gendry would be back at some point, the way things were left. It's GoT, after all, so, if someone dies, you will see it on screen. Fan service, to me, is bringing in a character or whatever for no long-term purpose at all. Gendry already served a purpose in the overall plot, so, to me, fan service is ruled out. You can still point out the flaws in the writing, but Gendry ended up saving the day for Jon and Sandor and Beric and Tormund and ser Notappearingeveragainintheseries. Now, for example, if there was a specific person who wanted a bit part in GoT, despite it being so late in the show, so the writers included a completely superfluous cameo for that person to appear, and it threw off the pacing of an episode, that might be fan service, but GoT writers would never do that at this point. For example, they would never take a singer/songwriter type guy and write him into a scene in the show otherwise completely disconnected from the overall plot, and just have him singing around a campfire or something dumb like that. The show's writers are way above that. ;)
     
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  13. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    Honestly, there was a time I was convinced it WAS Littlefinger - he seems to be the only one who knows who Jon's father is, and the show keeps refusing to confirm it. He also definitely has a thing for the Stark women, and in the books at least claims certain improprieties with both of them growing up. And while the assumption is Lyanna is telling Ned that Robert will kill the kid, it's also totally believable that she means the father, and Littlefinger would be a sitting duck. The biggest issue there, then, is why Rhaegar would keep Lyanna safe with two of the Kingsguard - it may be as simple as she asked, he's an honorable man, and smitten with her beauty.

    The irony of Littlefinger, arguably the biggest human villain of the series, being the father of Jon, the guy who seems to be shaping up to be at least one of the heroes, would be pretty rich. As to would be the fact that if you want to take odds on how Littlefinger would die, then Jon is probably the second most likely culprit, after Arya.
     
  14. bpprox22

    bpprox22 String Breaker

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    We already know who is Jon's father don't we? :scratch:
    We already know for a fact that Lyanna Stark is Jon Snow's mother and not Ned's bastard son.

    Now the only piece left is confirming who Jon's father is.

    However, didn't HBO quietly confirm Rhaegar is Jon Snow's father with this infographic?
    [​IMG]
    Source: http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/...nections-ned-promise-tower-of-joy-infographic

    This was posted on the official HBO blog. It would be kind of difficult for someone to convince me otherwise...
     
  15. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    We really don't, though, is the thing.

    Let's be honest - the producers and cast have not had a problem straight up lying for plot effect outside of the show, right up to Kit Harrington explicily saying in interviews, "Jon Snow is dead. Let it go," when asked if he was coming back. Briefly linking an infographic that seems to confirm a fan theory and then taking it down 1) is totally plausible and not out of character, and 2) isn't officially part of the story arc until it's confirmed within the show.

    Over and above that, here's what we actually KNOW:

    1)I suppose technically we don't know for 100% sure, even with the cut from her baby to Jon's face, but we know Ned found Lyanna having just given birth in the Tower of Joy, and she asked Ned to "keep him safe, and protect him," presumably (but to be fair, not necessarily) referring to the baby.
    2) We also know the timing is right for it to be Jon, since Ned brought a baby back from the campaign, that he probably wasn't away long enough to conceive and wait for it to be born, and it would be totally out of character for him to tarnish his honor like that. So, Lyanna asked Ned to protect the baby (most likely - unless it was the father she meant, but it seems unlikely), and Ned returns with a baby he claims as his own. For me, this seems concrete enough to confirm she's Jon's mother, at least to a "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard.
    3) We know that somewhere in Dorn, Rhaegar had a marriage annulled and remarried. We don't know who his marriage was annulled with nor who he remarried, and while fandom is quick to point to the fact that Lyanna was in Dorne at the Tower of Joy, Elia Martell herself was Dornish, and it's a little tricky to annul a marriage when you already have two kids.

    Over and above that, I'll add a fourth:

    4) Drogon seemed pretty chill about Jon. This could imply the dragon recognizes him as a Targaryen, and would give credence to the argument that Tyrion was also secretly a Targaryen since he didn't get eaten alive when he freed the dragons... But, at the same time, later that season Drogon carries half a dozen men on his back and doesn't seem to really care.

    Idunno. I think we have to be very clear about what we KNOW here, and what we suspect/want to believe. I think we know a lot less than everyone is commonly assuming.
     
  16. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    Jon is the perfect antithesis of Littlefinger. Littlefinger is the master of secrets and deception. Jon knows nothing and always does what he thinks is righteous. Jon is a fighter. Littlefinger always avoids a fight unless he's stabbing someone in the back. Littlefinger started as lesser nobility and has been climbing the status ladder ever since. Jon started out as a part of one of the highest ranking families and joined the Night's Watch, attempting to turn down power and authority every step.
    As pointed out - Jon seems most like the hero of the story, and Littlefinger most villainous of the human characters. Some might argue Joffrey or Cersei, but they both had some comeuppance already, and Littlefinger has not. Plus Littlefinger has consistently been where the action has been and always played some part in it, usually assassinating influential people so that he could forward his agendas, most of which we don't even understand, yet.
    So, it would be shocking and poetic, on several levels, if Jon was Littlefinger's son. I don't think you could argue it as a prevailing theory, but it is certainly a juicy thing to consider as an alternate theory, and some of the pieces do fit.

    Epic fantasy stories almost always have some sort of shocking twist. To be fair, it's rarely in the third act of the entire saga, but there's no reason why GoT would avoid totally shocking everyone with some sort of weird plot twist next season.
     
  17. KnightBrolaire

    KnightBrolaire tinkerer/aspiring builder/8 string hoarder

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    yeah except for you're confusing the tully women with lyanna stark. Catlyn and her sister are tully's and littlefinger was messing around with them growing up, not lyanna.
     
  18. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    I think the main reason for seeing Littlefinger as the primary villain and Jon as the primary hero is as simple as, to borrow a phrase, they're not quite dead yet. :lol:
     
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  19. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    Dammit, I AM. :lol: Still, that's hardly the most important reason to discount the R+L=J thing. It just makes Littlefinger a smidge less likely.
     
  20. bpprox22

    bpprox22 String Breaker

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    To your 3rd point:
    While it doesn't prove Rhaegar secretly married Lyanna, it hints this is most likely what happened since at the Tourney at Harrenhal, Rhaegar gave the victor's wreath (crown of winter roses) to Lyanna Stark. Lyanna is said to love winter roses -- some fans believe Rhaegar even made it ahead of time specifically for her (knowing he had a good chance of winning the tournament).

    To quote Ned Stark's dream:
    And according to tradition in the Seven Kingdoms, when a winner dedicates his victory to a woman by giving her the crown of roses, it is usually a woman he loves and/or intends to court. This would explain why "all the smiles died" since it is scandalous to do this when 1) the woman is already married or 2) you are already married.

    That would also explain why the marriage was in secret because it was "frowned upon".

    Again, I'm not saying this is absolute fact but I think it's difficult to say otherwise.
     

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