Finally Some Common Sense On Syrian Refugees

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by TRENCHLORD, Dec 9, 2015.

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  1. metallic1

    metallic1 SS.org Regular

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    Banned for what, the truth? I held back, and showed restraint.
    We all have a right to our own un popular opinion, right?
     
  2. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    Absolutely!

    If I recall from the topic correctly, it was pointed out that he was making a claim without any actual support from the source he had given, and he refused to concede or support his claim, instead just arguing that he had.

    In PC&E, the rules against trolling are enforced pretty strictly.

    If he had been able to state support for his assertions, rather than just denying the lack of support repeatedly, then I imagine things might have gone differently.

    I guess that speaks ill for posting, not unpopular opinions, but opinions which are not only contrary to facts, but also reasserted once proven wrong.

    (Now *that* has me wondering about the eventual success or failure of the argument against the existence of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, or the claim that it only specifies non-establishment of religious preference towards citizens as opposed to non-citizens. There is no such citizen-oriented language in it, so it was surprising to see that claimed....)
     
  3. sevenstringj

    sevenstringj Banned

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    Maybe instead of harping on and on in fantasy land while simultaneously, and incredibly, being condescending, you'd LOOK IT UP.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/10/o...im-plan-is-awful-and-constitutional.html?_r=0

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Spiro

    Fact is, you're not an expert. And experts are divided.

    http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...nflammatory-definitely-unconstitutional-maybe

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...w-muslim-visitor-ban_5666ec0ce4b072e9d1c77979

    etc.
     
  4. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    I was able to find, in the first two sources you listed, the idea that Trump's plan would be ruled un-Constitutional.

    Not to be condescending, but did you mean to link to sources which undermined your claim? Because that's generally a bad strategy.
     
  5. sevenstringj

    sevenstringj Banned

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    What part of "experts are divided" precludes those that argue it'd be unconstitutional? :spock:

    You: "the Constitution outright disagrees with [ncfiala]"

    Legal scholars: Some say it's constitutional, some say it's unconstitutional, some say maybe. (sources here)

    Citing legal scholars debating the issue doesn't "undermine" my claim the simple fact that experts are divided.


    You: "[ncfiala] did bring to my attention that there are some who claim to be experts on the Constitution who have managed to skip learning about the Bill of Rights, similar to [ncfiala]. That just puts them into the same category of reality denial as [ncfiala]."

    The combination of irony & arrogance there is breathtaking.
     
  6. metallic1

    metallic1 SS.org Regular

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    no, im talking about the here and now.
    they weren't trying to flood the US and
    half of europe 14 years ago.
    besides...how would that justify letting
    them in anyway?
     
  7. kmanick

    kmanick Contributor

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    You surely aren't paying attention to what is going on in all of the european countries where the refugees are flowing in. Swedish women are dying their hair black so they don't get raped. Demand for sharia law to take precedence is a daily happening. German teachers are being asaulted by Muslim teenage boys. You want this .... here?
    I get the religious right is overboard with their anti abortion anti gay marriage thing . I get it ('m not a republican, I'm an independent, you could call me a Republicrat)
    Sharia muslims don't assimilate. I know you'd love to believe that they will, but they don't. Take a walk through down town Dearborn and with your girlfriend and let me know how pleasant it is.
    Non Sharia Muslims are wonderful people, I actually work with a few.
    They don't get it either.
    I love how people always bring up what's on the statue of liberty in this debate.
    At the Time we received that, gays were persecuted, women couldn't vote
    and blacks had no rights. should we go back to those standards "Is that who we are"? Times are a changing, a moratorium on all immigration would be a good thing, until we can shore up our vetting and get a president in office who actually wants to stop ISIS.
    It's a not a right to come to this county it's a privilege.
     
  8. UnderTheSign

    UnderTheSign SS.org Regular

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    Eh, I live in Europe and have not heard jack about sharia law so far. The Swedish women dyeing their hair is a rumour that has been going around (source: good ol' stormfront) since 2005-6 now. So much for paying attention.

    Also: I know many people who volunteer in refugee centers. Surprise surprise, most refugees are at worst moderate Muslims.
     
  9. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    Uhm, no.

    They just like Nightwish :lol:

    No, seriously though that's misinformed BS.
     
  10. Edika

    Edika SS.org Regular

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    Just to make a note, coming from a country that is accepting the vast majority of refugees in the EU and have a part of our population voicing concerns of terrorists being smuggled with the refugees. However this doesn't make sense for the following reasons:
    First of the rate of a successfully crossing is not guaranteed. Many people have drowned while trying to cross the Aegean sea. A terrorist group wanting to smuggle their trained fighters, which are not vast in number as they want you to believe, are not going to risk this. Their cells have already being created by people residing already in the countries they want to target. Either being sent in advance or indoctrinated at those countries. People have even left from western countries to go join ISIL. Buying fake passports for the ones living the Middle East is easier and create less hassle. Don't forget that thousands of refugees await papers for months in Greece. That's time lost for a terrorist organisation sending fighters that way.
    Second ISIL is just jumping on that train and is creating terror and mistrust towards the refugees, using it as a diversion for getting their people in through different routes. If all effort and resources are mostly spent on the refugees it's easier for the real terrorists to go through alternate and even legal routes.
    That doesn't mean screening shouldn't happen. EU is dragging it's feet and is not helping in the slightest to alleviate the situation and speed up the process. Everybody is just complaining and pointing the finger to one another. Of course like so the terrorists win and divide us, instead of uniting us against them. The situation is severely more complicated and a lot of countries have different interests in the region and their actions reflect that.
     
  11. celticelk

    celticelk Enflamed with prayer

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    First: the plural of "anecdote" is still not "data," especially with respect to unsourced anecdotes. You can do better than that.

    Second: I grew up in SE Michigan, close enough that Dearborn was in my high school athletic conference. Don't BS me about what the Muslim community in Dearborn is like. You'll just embarrass yourself.
     
  12. celticelk

    celticelk Enflamed with prayer

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    This. Recruiting cells in target nations is a much bigger bang-for-buck activity, and citizens are under substantially less scrutiny (speaking generally) than foreign nationals, and will remain so unless Western countries decide that living in a totalitarian police state is an acceptable trade off for a marginal increase in security. Some of the right-wing European parties might actually welcome that outcome, but I doubt that any major figures on the American political scene would go that far. (Although given how surprised I've been by the sudden surfacing of the xenophobic radicals in this election cycle, I could always be wrong about that.)
     
  13. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    The effort to point out that the first author was an expert, combined with his expert analysis in the article that it would be ruled unconstitutional, just demonstrates that the chosen expert agrees that it is unconstitutional.

    It's foolish, as an example of some experts thinking this could be constitutional, to lay out the credentials of someone who thinks it is not constitutional. An analysis from a Constitutional expert who indicates that it would prevail as constitutional would be a better source, and if there is a true division, such should be easy to come by, no?

    It's like the student in Kung Pow who was deliberately taught wrong: "I'm bleeding, making me the victor!"
     
  14. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    First off, even Fox News has had to issue retractions for the statements about Sharia law in Europe, and they routinely let false stories stand.

    I also like that you're willing to assert why Swedish women might dye their hair, and wonder if you will be retracting (or even apologizing for) that false narrative you gave. If you do, thanks for letting a Swede correct you for your factual error. And if you don't, don't you think that will damage the trust people have in your assertions?

    You also seem to unaware of how right-wing Christian evangelicals in the US have been claiming to be a culture apart, and how they reject the culture at large. Your assertions about how a culture held apart from the main culture, and which wants to impose its religious rules as law in the US, fit to a T. In fact, do you think a simple search would find any major Republican presidential candidates who have made statements about what religious beliefs are necessary to be President, in spite of such requirements being unconstitutional?
     
  15. sevenstringj

    sevenstringj Banned

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    What's "foolish" is you replying to me without reading what I wrote. Again. :facepalm: "Experts are divided" literally means that some of them say temporarily banning Muslim immigrants would be constitutional while others say it wouldn't. I don't need you to tell me that there are some experts who think it'd be unconstitutional. :rolleyes: What's even more foolish is you pretending that the first author (Peter Spiro) argued it'd be unconstitutional when the friggin TITLE of his piece is "Trump’s Anti-Muslim Plan Is Awful. And Constitutional." :lol: :spock: (The first scholars mentioned in the NPR article also argued it'd be constitutional, and ALL scholars cited in the Huff Post article argued it'd be constitutional.)

    The point is that you have the nerve to take on an authoritative, condescending tone and not only attack another member, but attack LEGAL SCHOLARS who disagree with you and dismiss them out of hand without even bothering to look them up.

    You've obviously mastered the art of attacking people without explicitly calling them names so you can dodge a ban. Hopefully the mods see through it. You're way outta line.
     
  16. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    I did read the various links provided, and made comments based on those links.

    I do, in fact, speak directly about when there is a demonstrated fact (like proving someone's expertise before usng them as a source which undercuts one's own case) and ghen someone claiming the opposite (that person's analysis and expertise support me).

    In this case, it's definitely my opinion that experts are not divided, but that there are only those contrarians on the extreme right who think this plan would prevail on Constitutional grounds. I think it's the same as watchng those on the right who keep thinking that their "religious freedom" argument is enough to impose their particular religious views upon whether someone of a differnt faith can, or cannot, marry.

    Noting a failure in logic, or a foolish mistake, is different from a personal attack, at least in the minds of most. Yes, there are those who apparently want safe spaces where they are immune from not just attack, but even unpleasant ideas and even criticism. However, criticism is different from a personal attack.

    If you think the basis of my criticisms (in this case, my assertions that it is foolish to rely on sources which aren't supporting one's argument) from which other conclusions would be derived (one would need twisted logic to claim support from a source which actually doesn't do so) are wrong, then go after that.

    As always, whenever you think a comment is a personal attack, be sure to report it, even if it's me. The mods can't be everywhere, and are grateful for the assist.

    ----

    Just as a helpful touchstone on this subject, i thought I remembered you having the same ideas on the difference between personal attacks and pointing out flaws in arguments as me. Her's an example of you agreeing, and putting it into action.

    http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/politics-current-events/282387-casual-harassment-10.html

    "Social retard," "troll," and even an accusation of a "bald-faced lie."

    Well... you do go a bit beyond what you are accusing me of.

    ----

    And now, back to topic!
     
  17. sevenstringj

    sevenstringj Banned

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    That's THREE times you pretend the sources I spoon-fed you "undercut" some "claim/case/argument" I never made. "Experts are divided" was my claim. It's not even a claim, it's just fact. But instead of mustering the humility to acknowledge the scholarly debate on the issue, you double down on your "opinion" flagrantly false ad hominem to blow off legal scholars who disagree with you. Peter Spiro, Akhil Amar, Michael Dorf, Gabriela Rivera, Natsu Saito, Stephen Legomsky, etc. are not "contrarians on the extreme right." Nor are they even remotely akin to the "religious right imposing their views" on others. So your "opinion," "criticism," accusations of "twisted logic" "reality denial" "not interested in learning" etc. are in fact cynically cloaked personal attacks. Indeed you are "trolling" & telling "bald-faced lies." ;) At least tedtan admitted he got caught at one point in that other thread. Nice try there. And I did report you, btw.

    And now, back on topic for real...

    US Intel: ISIS May Have Passport Printing Machine, Blank Passports - ABC News
     
  18. Mprinsje

    Mprinsje st. anger ain't bad!

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    I might not be german or swedish but my country is also letting in many muslim refugees and i have never heard someone seriously demand sharia law. Some people might think sharia is a good thing, but they are such a small minority that nobody even thinks of taking that seriously. I bet you that there are some muslims in the US who think sharia should be implemented, it's not unique to Europe. And the whole hair-dye thing is the most blatant piece of BS i've ever read.
     
  19. The Reverend

    The Reverend GHETTO KING OF SWAG

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    Explorer is on one in this thread, damn.

    I feel really powerless when it comes to the issue of Syrian refugees, because where I live and work the prevailing attitude is that Muslims at best should be denied entrance and/or deported, and killed at worst. It's such a common occurrence that I'd spend a lot of time and burn a lot of bridges trying to defend them.

    It really just boggles me that a nation of immigrants can't see that we're just spinning the same circles here. There's very little to separate the arguments against Syrian immigration from the arguments against Jews or the Irish back in the day. I had a friend of mine point to Japanese internment camps as a GOOD EXAMPLE of how to handle the issue, and it completely gutted me.

    I support the influx of Syrian refugees. If anything, American culture tends to homogenize and de-emphasize religiosity over time. I know it often doesn't feel like it, but compared to the America of the past, we are well on our way to being a pretty damn secular country.
     
  20. 1b4n3z

    1b4n3z SS.org Regular

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    Things are looking pretty grim on this side of the pond as well I'd say, and getting worse still. We're, yet slowly, but at ever faster pace, re-establishing 30's politics in the EU and the decline of rational thought is mind numbing. Our house isn't even completed yet and we haven't stepped inside once, and I'm already seriously considering selling it and moving the hell out of here before it's too late. And this is absolutely not because of poor refugees showing up, but instead because of the co-occurrence of far right nationalism and the impossibility of our economic conditions to improve without severing the euro system. It'll be a spectacle I'd rather watch somewhere far away
     
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