Extreme Rightwing Christian Terrorists attack Norway

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Northern, Jul 22, 2011.

  1. MF_Kitten

    MF_Kitten Set up us the bomb

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    I know what you mean, but if you ask a catholic about mormons, they will say they aren't true christians. If you ask a mormon about a jehova's witness, a jehova's witness about mormons... Well, you get the point. Who gets to say that THIS is the proper definition of what a christian is? Catholics? Protestants? Evangelics? If you have to strip away the differences and only use the similarities, then it would be "believing in a god, and his son jesus christ", mainly. If Breivik truly believes in Jesus Christ, and God almighty, then who are we to say that is not the case?

    It's a perfect example of e No True Scotsman fallacy. Breivik is, from what i've read in his shitty manifesto, a fundamentalist old testament type of christian, and an admirer of the crusaders and all that. Hell, i'm actually pretty sure you can perfectly justify his actions using the old testament somehow, considering the insane stuff it condones.

    If you say you're a christian, and you have a tattoo, i can, based on the bible alone, say that it isn't true, because you wouldn't be following the laws put down by god. But then some christian guy might come along and refute that based on some ther version of the same belief. Christians can both agree with and disagree with fundies who are against gay marriage. Which of the two is a christian, and which is not?

    This is what i mean though, although i could've mentioned it more directly. Since values are entirely man-made, that means that we have to value things accordingly. Humans are worth more to us than chickens though, and considering our main biological goal is to ensure the further reproduction of our species, that makes sense.

    There is such a thing as objective morality though, but that's harder to figure out, because we have to go into science and facts and all that :D
     
  2. Nimgoble

    Nimgoble Wound tight

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    And he's correct. There is no intrinsic value to life. Each and every one of us assigns our own values to things.

    No, he's not. He has just assigned a different value to the concept of life. And he's equating life to life, regardless of what form the life takes.


    What is your evidence for this? How do you know he doesn't have any idea how much goes behind the events he speaks of?

    A religion is defined by it's doctrines. Christians profess to follow the Bible. That is the bare minimum for someone to be a Christian. And, if they do, they can follow whichever parts they like. Anyone who says otherwise is committing the No True Scotsman Fallacy

    Sure we can. We're "advanced"(this implies some sort of ultimate end-point, which I don't agree with) in some areas more so than other animals. But not in all areas. Do these other animals, who advanced in their respective areas(e.g. a cheetah's running speed) also disqualify them from being lumped in with "other animals"? Or do they have to be far advanced in more than one area? Who decides this?

    An animal is an animal. Any value that we assign is subjective. Sure, we can say that we're so much better, but that's not an absolute and it can be disputed by a person with a different set of values. It seems like you're looking for excuses to justify a Human Exceptionalism stance.

    How so? Not saying you're wrong, I'd just like to here you expand on that.
     
  3. Nimgoble

    Nimgoble Wound tight

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    They are all a subset of "Christian".

    No, humans are worth more than chickens to the majority of us. Not all of us. The Majority's values are not an absolute. Morrissey is just as correct in believing that all life is equal as you are in your Human Exceptionalism.

    Not in the sense that you're using it in. Objective morality makes sense only if you recognize that it is dependent on subjective values.
     
  4. chronocide

    chronocide Total Grind Hell

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    There can be no objective morality unless there is a divine creator.
     
  5. vampiregenocide

    vampiregenocide A Chap Called Ross

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    I did write a long post about human life is no better than animal life and should be cared for and resected as much as possible, but then I remembered the world we live in and how ultimately pointless such a post would be.
     
  6. Scar Symmetry

    Scar Symmetry Ex Whiny Bitch

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    Now we're talking! Something to get my teeth into, great. Ok, so are you saying that mentally humans are not advanced past all other animals to the point where it's not even worth questioning? Sure, each animal has their own "special trick", but ours is pretty fucking potent compared to being able to run fast. :lol:

    As I said, biologically we are of course 100% animals. The viewpoint that "we are so much better" is of course not absolute, but neither is "actually, we are not so much better". ;)

    I realise that you have demonstrated your argument by disagreeing, but the second part of your post says to me you don't understand my viewpoint as I am thoroughly against human exceptionalism, just not in the same way that you seem to be.

    The past few pages of this thread proves how complicated it can get, I don't need to expand on it. :lol:
     
  7. XEN

    XEN BEYOND 6UITAR & B4SS Contributor

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    Causality is not engineered. It is a constant in this universe and the sole basis for objective morality.
    Any moral code derived from religion or myth is based on a pathetically flawed analogy to actual truth.
     
  8. Nimgoble

    Nimgoble Wound tight

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    I am, in fact, disagreeing with that point. Example

    Now, I am of the opinion that we are more advanced. I just don't think the gap between us and the next most intelligent life form on the planet is THAT large.

    Lol. I quite agree. And I never said that his view point was anything but subjective. In fact, my statement(s) INCLUDED his view point, indirectly. But, the reason I brought it up was because of the rather absolutist statement made in this thread about morality and values.

    I may not. Admittedly, I have not browsed this whole topic, so I may have missed some much needed insight in to your opinion. Would you care to pinpoint where our contention lies between our two viewpoints on human exceptionalism?

    Fair enough. I didn't read them. Perhaps I will.
     
  9. MF_Kitten

    MF_Kitten Set up us the bomb

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    alright, objective might be the wrong word. science-and-facts-based non-emotional morality then.

    I don't have the attention span to continue the argument from here on forward, so i will say that i am most likely wrong about stuff, and probably right about some of it, and others arguing with me is likely to be right about stuff i was wrong about.

    Also, Morrisey is still a cunt. a misguided dumb cunt. i don't care if his values can't be called wrong, because i don't have to respect his values.
     
  10. Demiurge

    Demiurge Intrepid Jackass

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    Well, I hope I don't sound entirely ad hoc about this :lol: but the different sects of Christianity all share a tendency to introduce particular sets of dogma into their beliefs to where those who don't share in the dogma are excluded. Kind of like how some metalheads say, "if it has keyboards, it's not metal" where it's more idiomatic than literal. If you play a farfiza organ over South of Heaven, it's not made un-metal by the addition, but it no longer matches metal in the ideal of the person saying it.

    This Breivik guy, if he says that he believes in Jesus Christ as the son of God, then he's nominally a Christian. His actions, though, express an intolerance and a disregard for life that is largely inconsistent with even the basic-stuff-everyone-agrees-with Christianity being about. He's a Christian, but a really really bad one.
     
  11. Overtone

    Overtone SS.org Regular

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    No joke, the other day i spent forty minutes trying to convince two people that humans are animals. Its kind of odd to see "who gets to decide that?" mentioned re who is a christian, since that was my sisters counter argument. It turned out the other person believes we are from another galaxy entirely so i really couldnt say anything to that, but it did take the conversation to a whole new place. If you are familiar with godlike productions you know what i mean. I enjoyed it and i really dont object to his beliefs, except that there are some seriouskl racist undertones.

    Re the cops response i think its seriously wrong if its true that the whole helicopter crew was allowed to be on vacation at once.


    Also i am in stockholm and saw a big rally for norway in the square near the ahlens city.
     
  12. chronocide

    chronocide Total Grind Hell

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    Note, I'm not a theist. Without a creator however, there can't be objective morality. All morality is subjective.
     
  13. Scar Symmetry

    Scar Symmetry Ex Whiny Bitch

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    Yes, perhaps you should. Not appreciating your tone here buddy, you're coming off as condescending and argumentative. If it's a debate you wish to have, let's have it. However, I won't be baited into justifying myself post on post without you actually contributing yourself.
     
  14. chimp_spanner

    chimp_spanner I am a meat popsicle

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    I've always thought morality has its roots in nature, not religion. Kind of a mix of self preservation (I don't hit you because you may hit me back harder and hurt/kill me) and our 'programming' ensuring the survival of our race. After all, we kind of function better in groups than on our own. We don't have fur, fangs, or a great deal of strength. Just our brains and funny looking paws!

    So morality without a creator? I can buy that. If morality is generally not being a twat, we're programmed to do that from birth so as not to wipe ourselves out, just like virtually any other 'community' of complex life forms.

    Ironically it's usually belief (corrupted or otherwise) in a God or religion that gives people an excuse to break their innate moral code!

    Is that even irony? You'd think by 27 I'd know :lol: Anyway that's just my opinion, as someone who doesn't observe a religion.
     
  15. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    I believe there is more evidence for humans practicing primate politics than for there being an objective morality.

    Primates, as a rule, treat those who are closer/more similar better than those distant/less similar. In the troop, there are factions, closer and more distant personal relationships, and so on. Once another troop appears, the troop unites and fights against the invaders.

    Humans form those same primate bonds, but can do so with more intellectual reasoning involved. We can form relationships outside our species (pets, PETA), outside our immediate area ("Oh, those poor people in that country who were just hit by a meteor!"), based on cuteness ("Save the naked mole rat!"), or the same faith ("We need to help those poor members of our religion who are being oppressed in this foreign country!").

    Humans can also practice primate politics when other species or similar primates are viewed as threats intellectually. "Kill the spotted owls! They took our jobs!" "Those people don't believe this particular aspect of our faith, so they're not really members of our faith! Kill them with a rock!"

    I think my theory of primate politics has much more support than a theory of morality arising from any divine source. Any time someone makes claims of divine inspiration, one sees all kinds of apologetics when actions don't match divinity. Primate politics is a better predictive model.
     
  16. Phrygian

    Phrygian Lefty

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    In the newspapers here there was a story of a father who got a phonecall from his daughter that was on the island, telling him that shit was going down. so he called the police while he had her on the other phone and the guy/gal answering at the emergency sentral told him this, "they have to call us themselves" and that was that.
     
  17. highlordmugfug

    highlordmugfug themuthaphukkindeath

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    D:=


    Reminds me of the girl who's dad had just had brain surgery, he had a seizure, she called 911 and was cursing because she was freaking out, and the operator told her to watch her mouth and hung up on her: multiple times. She kept calling back and he hung up on her like 3 times. Then they arrested her when he finally did send someone. :noplease:

    It's fucking mindblowing that there are people that would really do shit like that out there.
     
  18. Nimgoble

    Nimgoble Wound tight

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    Whoa, whoa, whoa. Then there has been a misunderstanding. If anything, my tone was a little dry. But it's just because I was trying to be calm about everything. I didn't want the debate to get emotionally charged.

    Condescending? No. Argumentative? Sure. We're having an argument, though, not a heated one...I hope...?

    And I do believe I have contributed. I've even cited examples. And asked for clarification, just so I don't accidentally attack a straw man.
     
  19. XEN

    XEN BEYOND 6UITAR & B4SS Contributor

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    I agree that for the most part morality is highly subjective. However, I believe that a creator is unnecessary for there to be such a thing as objective morality. We assume that for it to be objective there has to be a singular source or point of origin. The collective consciousness of the organism of man is a far more viable source, and does not require a leap of faith.
     
  20. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    I don't know about how morality could be objective, unless you're talking about biological imperatives.

    At their core, all successful living organisms seek to derive enough energy from their environments to ensure continuation of their genetics, whether through breeding, asexual reproduction or other methods.

    When those organisms (I'm including viruses in that category, even though there is debate on this) come in competition with other organisms for those same resources, then there is usually a struggle for those resources.

    Based on different perceptions, different organisms, in as much as they might think about this at all, would have different moralities. Viruses would view things different from dogs. Christian pilgrims in the New World would have no problem with giving infectious blankets to the native populations to surreptitiously kill large numbers of them, in order to eliminate competition for the resources the natives would have shared with them.

    Unless the proposed "objective morality" has to do with seeking to continue one's genetics, there is too much evidence against any other imperative as a basis for such morality.

    Out of curiosity... from those who feel there is an objective morality, what form does that take?
     

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