Disincentive To Work

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Eric Christian, Oct 4, 2013.

  1. Eric Christian

    Eric Christian Banned

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    Whats the point of busting your ass to try to make a better life for your family when the cards are pretty much stacked against the middle class now? So yeah I did some rough calculation based on the numbers provided by the government. Family A is a married couple with two kids. The father is the sole income provider and makes a gross yearly income of $65,000. Taxed at 15% ($6600) the net is roughly $58400. Now subtract another approximately $1200 dollars for state income tax and social security and you've got $57200. Now consider the mandatory expense of Obamacare which would work out to roughly $5400. This further reduces the original gross income to a net of $51800. So divided up over 12 months thats $4316 a month.

    Now take family B which is also a married couple with two children and the father is head of household. Only he makes $28000 a year. He pays zero federal and state income taxes because this is poverty level. So yeah, this family is eligable for $400 worth of food stamps a month. This just added $4800 to their income so now theyre at $32800. Now consider that $450 a month Obamacare plan that Family A had to pay for is free. Now Family B's income has been boosted by $5400 which takes it to $38200. Now factor in each adult can get a free Obamaphone which is a $100 a month value so now their income is actually $40600. Of course there are a few other free sh1t programs Family B can get on like H.E.A.T for instance but bottom line Family A father is busting his ass working 10 hours days for an additional $933 a month... Ask yourself, is really worth it?
     
  2. ghostred7

    ghostred7 Banned

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    IMO...absolutely. Every little bit helps. $933 is a lot of extra meat to freeze/store for my family. Extra expense should a car, house, etc needs a repair. Extra money to take my family out to do something fun and bond.

    So yes. To me, busting ass for extra provisions of any kind for my family is very much worth it.
     
  3. will_shred

    will_shred not that good.

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    I would say it's worth it simply to not rely on government aid, and I'm about as left wing as they get. If you can work a decent job and lift yourself above the need for government aid, it's worth it. If you really need government aid to keep your head above water, then that's fair as well assuming you make an effort to lift yourself out of said situation.

    :2c:
     
  4. Murmel

    Murmel Fapping to J-rock

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    Does it really hurt so much to help out the less fortunate with some taxes?
     
  5. Hollowway

    Hollowway Extended Ranger

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    I'm all for helping out the less fortunate, but the system is definitely set up in a way that rewards not working. Unfortunately the only thing keeping a lot of people off government welfare (not literally "welfare," but all forms of assistance) is pride, and wanting to earn what they get paid. Obviously in higher incomes this is less of an issue, but at the middle class and lower middle class level the incentive is to keep your income low to qualify for all the aid, not get married so your spouse's income is not figured in with yours, have a bunch of kids when you're really young to get assistance for them, etc. the whole thing would work if everyone was honest and wanted to move upward, but there are way too many disincentives to bust your butt unless you can make substantially more than the average worker.
     
  6. angus

    angus SS.org Regular

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    If you have to ask yourself if it is really worth it, you are missing the point. If the opportunity to earn an extra $1k/mo, with the potential for upward mobility, increased earnings, savings, investments, etc, is not worth it to you because someone else makes almost as much for less work, then you have your priorities way off base. Why are you worrying about other people, and why is that figuring into what you are doing? Either way you'll pay taxes- that isn't going away.

    I've never honestly met anyone who intentionally kept their income down, avoided marriage and had tons of kids just to maximize their aid and minimize taxes. People can reference "I know a guy...", but really, anyone smart enough and knowledgable enough in taxes/government programs is also smart enough to not be making that little cash (and smart enough to know that that is a stupid idea).

    People are so paranoid about everybody being parasites. Yeah, there are some. A greater number aren't. You have to pay your taxes either way. Just focus on your career and family. Moving on.

    (By the way, the same goes for people making tons of money. They just might deserve it, so stop crying. Again, moving on.)

    (Also, why did you factor in the Affordable Care Act expense in family A? He's making that much, but doesn't have healthcare provided for at his job?)
     
  7. Eric Christian

    Eric Christian Banned

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    Oh jeez I forgot to subtract the equivalent $400 bucks Family B gets in food stamps and deduct it from Family A which now brings the difference to $533. So yeah now is it really worth it to bust your ass when all you do is get punished? This is a the culmination of a massive social engineering program that has specifically targeted the middle class. First in the 80's & 90's our government allowed all the manufacturing jobs to be overseas meanwhile dropping tariffs all the while increasing taxes on the middle class and also growing social welfare programs exponentially.

    So yeah, the father in Family A is a auto mechanic and the father in Family B is a Starbucks Barista/Manager. Both are making almost the equivalent money but you tell me who's working harder?
     
  8. angus

    angus SS.org Regular

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    You aren't getting punished. What happens to them doesn't affect you.

    The crossover line is shitty, sure, but how it is sensible to punish people making less just so you can feel less aggrieved? That's a very primal, envious instinct, isn't it?
     
  9. Eric Christian

    Eric Christian Banned

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    I don't think you've been paying attention bro. The U.S. Supreme Court ruled that forcing people to buy a product is constitutional. Employer provided health insurance for the entire Family A is $624 a month and that's with the employer picking up half the premium. On the other hand, the "Bronze" Obamacre plan weighs in at $450. Never mind the fact that in 3 years most private health insurance companies will be driven out of business by the Soviet system we have let ourselves be sucked into.
     
  10. skeels

    skeels ..to pay the beels

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    ^ But you already added that to the other family's imaginary income.

    Your math is flawed. And your argument is hypothetical.

    Like Angus said, most people don't even know anyone who purposely makes their life crappy in order to be lazy and spongy. But there are people at all ranges of the spectrum trying to take advantage of every loophole to get more.

    I don't personally know any billionaires who are screwing people left and right to get more. I hear theyre out there though.

    I do know the crackhead who lives next door who doesn't work and always tries to sponge cigarettes from passersby. I don't envy his lazy lifestyle.

    I meet more veterans at the food pantry.
     
  11. Eric Christian

    Eric Christian Banned

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    You just don't get it do you? Of course the father in family A is getting punished. Indirectly through his income taxes he is basically funding the father of family B to stand around pouring coffees and playing grab ass with all the female Baristas and Milf customers... Lol...
     
  12. Eric Christian

    Eric Christian Banned

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    Regardless what the government says when family B gets $400 in food stamps I consider that income. Logically then, you would need to deduct an equivalent $400 from family A's gross to be fair. My math is fine.
     
  13. Konfyouzd

    Konfyouzd Dread-I Master Contributor

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    It's evil and wrong. You shut your damn socialist Euro face! :lol:

    I had a convo with someone at work the other day and I've been hearing alot about people getting upset about how universal healthcare is bad because we have immigrants in this country... Is there a single country that doesn't? Is every immigrant in every country legal?

    Further, we pay for all sorts of social programs to help people that were born in this country and don't even work. Now, granted illegal immigrants usually don't pay taxes. At the same time, the jobs they do are jobs most Americans don't want to do. Like cleaning public restrooms so your pompous ass has a clean place to drop a stinker... Construction, so you have a building to park your high horse out in front of every day to earn your money and pay your taxes. This isn't to down play either of these jobs, but if I had my way I'd continue getting paid to think so that when/if my body fails me I'm still useful and employed... :2c:

    It seems to me like folks think too much about about what's in their pockets right here and now versus considering what everything they do and/or pay for actually goes toward. The money immigrants aren't getting taxed on goes to furthering their lives the same as the jobs they do furthers yours.

    I'm not encouraging people to come here illegally and work, but I feel like the issue gets painted a bit too black and white because people want a reason to bitch about their financial situation. :2c:

    And why would it ever not be worth it to keep busting your ass to keep up your lifestyle? To conceded is to become exactly what you're complaining about...

    The problem is partially ppl worrying too damn much about what's in everyone else's pockets as opposed to just minding their own business and doing what they need to do to help themselves and their family survive. To blame someone else for your inability to do so is a cop out in my opinion. Learn to manage your finances. You may have to cut back on this or that from time to time or perhaps just a short period of time, but keeping your head above water is the point so as long as you have that, why worry about how someone else gets their nut?
     
  14. skeels

    skeels ..to pay the beels

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    Meanwhile through our indirect acquiescence and compliance, people are being shot and bombed and our world is being poisoned while the rich fat cats are laughing all the way to the bank.

    Bickering over the way the pennies are spent while fortunes are wasted on death seems....

    Sanctimonious.
     
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  15. Konfyouzd

    Konfyouzd Dread-I Master Contributor

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    ^Not enough e-rep in the world for that post... :hbang:
     
  16. Hollowway

    Hollowway Extended Ranger

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    I'm not sure I've got much to add in terms of weighing in on Obamacare, etc., but I do think that the incentives in this country would be better aligned if they rewarded those working or those doing something to further the health, goodwill, esteem, etc of the citizens of the country and world. It makes little sense to me that someone can make a comfortable living by day trading stocks, for example. This is contributing nothing to anyone other than the actual day trading "industry." In my ideal world, trading and selling stocks inside of a 24 hour window would have a much higher capital gains tax than ordinary income. And all of these Wall Street shenanigans, where private equity firms buy companies, take out a loan to pay themselves an arbitrary salary, and then have the companies pay them back, should be illegal. The problem is that these companies are often doing nothing to further the development of a product, or investmenting in developing something, and are instead using the financial industry to generate money. It tells the brightest people in the country that if you want to make a comfortable living you should be a doctor or lawyer. But if you want to be wealthy you should be a banker. So we have, at the low end of the income spectrum, an incentive to not work because you could receive the same stuff for free, and at the high end of the income spectrum and incentive not to work (i.e produce, help or invest in something that changes something for the better beyond your own personal income) because you can make more money by manipulating financial instruments.
     
  17. Rev2010

    Rev2010 Contributor

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    The problem with your math is that both families listed (or head of household rather) are still working. And I would hazard a guess that the guy working for $28,000 a year has a much shittier job and is treated more poorly and has far less sick days and vacation time, not to mention likely no year end bonus, than the $65,000 employee.


    Rev.
     
  18. Konfyouzd

    Konfyouzd Dread-I Master Contributor

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    Yea man... I make more than both of those dudes in the example and I take days off whenever the hell I want. Most of my friends that don't and make less money:

    1. Work much harder than I do on a daily basis--usually physically.
    2. Have shittier hours than I do. I can go in to work, leave "early" and telecommute the rest of the day if it better suits my schedule for that day. And I even have entire days designated solely for telecommuting. I know MANY people that can't say that whether they have a comparable salary or not.
    3. Have less or NO sick days. I still get paid when I'm sick.
    4. Don't even have a healthcare OPTION provided by their employer.
    5. Don't have a retirement plan OPTION provided by their employer.

    Hell my job even gives us stock options which is essentially just free money if they match you on it--which they do. They also match me dollar for dollar on my 401k contributions...

    Etc...

    So if I get taxed a little more for extra flexibility, so be it. Because from my vantage point, no matter how the math works out, I'm still in a financially better situation and am more likely to qualify for loans that may help me out when times do get rough... There's clearly a reason I was buying a house at 25 and my friends were (and some still are) just trying to leave their parents' house. And I was out of my house 3 years prior to even purchasing a home. The "don't tax me bro" thing is a bit overblown it seems. That or I'm the luckiest son of a bitch in America which we all know isn't true.
     
  19. Rev2010

    Rev2010 Contributor

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    Me too, I make more than the "upper" guy in his post. I was able to pickup a nearly $2000 Carvin and have a $4600 Jackson custom in the works... I'd say yeah... even with taxes having the income I do is better than even sitting home not working and getting the income the lower guy gets in his post. Though I'll admit my bank account in almost NIL at this point. I've travelled all over the world many times, I've been to Hawaii five times, Saint Martin eight times, Venice twice, Germany over a dozen, stayed in two castles in Germany and two in Scotland, etc. I certainly couldn't do any of that shit on $28,000. Granted, my wife works as well and for the past 7 years live on the first floor of her parents house which also saves us extra money from the even higher rent I was paying prior. But I moved out of home when I was 20 and have supported myself since.

    Some arguments here are quite true though... how the government can force you to either buy a form of healthcare or be penalized is pure criminal. Overall though I'd hope in the long run having the government involved in healthcare will reign in the overpricing involved in the industry, that too is pure criminal. I had a friend who had a pain in his left hand. He finally went to a hospital and they admitted him after a scan showed a possible, non-threatening, blood clot. They were supposedly running tests to find out the origin of the clot. Well, they never did and a simple inject I believe it was broke up the clot and he was released after three days in the hospital. He had no health insurance. Wanna know what they billed him? $25,000!!!!!! He didn't have it obviously and got a medicare filing to cover the costs due to his low income... but WTF... $25,000!!??? For a clot in his hand.

    I hope eventually the government can force these criminals to stop overcharging. Unfortunately, with all the corruption in politics I seriously doubt that will happen.


    Rev.
     
  20. darren

    darren Decibel Guitars Forum MVP

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    All those millionaires holding positions in your government are probably delighted that you see the lower class as a threat to your middle class existence, instead of the upper echelons of society that get away with paying far less than their fair share.

    Social engineering indeed.

    American class warfare is playing out exactly as they want it to... which means the rich will continue to get richer and more powerful, and the middle and lower classes get to fight each other for what's left.
     
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