Defacing of monuments is apparently becoming more common.

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by KnightBrolaire, Aug 26, 2017.

  1. KnightBrolaire

    KnightBrolaire 8 string hoarder

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    :shrug: they were all pardoned and very few people were even tried for treason. There's a quote from William Seward that's pretty apt: "Make no expressions of harshness or disrespect, or even impatience concerning the seceding States, their agents, or their people, [those States] must always continue to be, equal and honored members of this Federal Union, [their citizens] still are and always must be our kindred and countrymen."[105] The United States government never declared war on those "kindred and countrymen" in the Confederacy, but conducted its military efforts beginning with a presidential proclamation issued April 15, 1861.[106] It called for troops to recapture forts and suppress what Lincoln later called an "insurrection and rebellion".[107]
    I'm merely reporting what I've read. Personally I don't give a shit one way or the other whether they were rebels or traitors, the whole point of reviving this thread was that the defacing of statues is escalating. It started with confederate statues and progressed to fucking Thomas Jefferson and Teddy Roosevelt statues.
     
  2. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    :agreed: I had typed out a paragraph about how we were off on a tangent spun off another tangent, anyway, but then I deleted it, because I thought that was pointing out the obvious.

    The entire point in defacing these monuments is people trying to make a statement. That statement is an awful lot like shouting "Hey, look at me!" The problem is that if you don't have anything important to say once you have people's attention, you are just an asshole. But in 2017, when the average attention span for an issue in the media is about 24 hours, and there are more idiots out there than ever, most of this just compounds a new layer of noise in my everyday life. Really, I do care about statues. But on my list of priorities, not getting stabbed by a crackhead on the subway is about 100 items higher on my list of priorities during a day than doing anything to preserve statues. :shrug: If there is a statue that offends enough people, and they go through due process of the law to have the statue removed, then that's fine. If people are so offended by a statue and so distrusting of the local authorities that they end up vandalizing the statue or whatever, then they would probably be much better off just moving somewhere else anyway. If the authorities they distrust arrest them for vandalizing the statue, since there is a written law about not deliberately messing up other people's stuff, I'm on the side with the authorities, whether it's a statue of Abraham Lincoln or a statue of Snidely Whiplash, I don't care - you don't mess up other people's stuff unless you have a really good reason. Being offended on an emotional level is just not a good enough reason to go around breaking stuff.

    As for whether the Confederate army was a foreign army against the acting government of the USA or an organized rebellion or whatever, I think it's silly to argue about it. The information is all out there in the open, so there's not really any wiggle room for that many different interpretations. The CSA was a rebellion against the established and acting US government. The CSA was backed by state governments who decided to support that rebellion. The Confederate government was trying to emerge as it's own independent nation, but it did not succeed at doing so.

    Take an analogy: If my boss at the company for which I work decided to start his own company, but he did this completely outside of the authority of my employer, and he told me that I had to work for him, how would the law see my choice to leave my employer and work for my same boss? If I had signed a non-disclosure agreement about the inventions I made under employment for my current employer, would there be a legal problem with my boss, who would hypothetically become my new employer, selling those products? Of course it'd be a problem- it'd be a huge problem and my employer would be legally allowed to sue my boss and myself for everything we were worth and would probably win. The higher authority pulls rank over the lower authority. For those who thought the state was a higher authority than their nation, they were demonstrably wrong. Arguing about it is kind of dumb.
     
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  3. Randy

    Randy Ooh, Degrasse Tyson-son Super Moderator

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    Still being, at best, naive and at worst, leading in your choice of subject matter and timing.

    The thread was originally made less than two weeks after the Charlottesville VA rally that was still big news, and happened over the proposed removal of a Gen. Robert E Lee statue from their park, which spun off similar actions by municipalities throughout the South. Likewise, the narrative from white supremacists who were organizing the rallies was about how it disrespected the past and was trying to erase it. Your arguments then and now might be your own but they're too analogous to one another (especially the timing) to now claim this thread is all about universal condemnation of criminally vandalizing statues and nothing else. Nice try, but no.

    That said, this is a time in the country where emotions are raw on both sides and people are lashing out. Some people are ALWAYS looking to start trouble, but especially stressful and polarizing times lead to more violent and destructive tenancies across the board. There's not some giant magnet in the center of the Earth making people destroy statues, and they're not doing it just because anybody told them too; there's a complex set of things in current events and culture driving people to want to act out and, for a time, doing it by defacing statues is one of the ways they're doing it. I don't grieve it happening as the disease itself, it's a symptom. But that's not a conversation we're going to make any rational movement on because the topic is already so loaded, and even moreso when it's grouped in with LEGAL civic actions, like municipalities voting to remove statues from parks they own.
     
  4. KnightBrolaire

    KnightBrolaire 8 string hoarder

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    Look at most of my posts at the beginning of the thread and they were mostly aimed at how I didn't think vandalizing statues is conducive to getting people to listen to an opinion. I even said that I don't have a problem with cities taking them down on their own. Granted, the connotation of the statues for me is apparently not the same for the people clamoring to have them taken down/vandalizing them. To me I see a statue of a confederate general that has some artistic merit, they see vestiges of racism and something worth destroying to get their point across. I said they would escalate the vandalism and they did. Going after confederate statues is understandable from their perspective, even columbus is understandable, but going after Teddy Roosevelt is just absurd imo. All my posts about Lee were largely my opinion that he was admirable due to his tactical ideas and his service before the civil war. You're more than welcome to try and question my intentions with the thread but it was largely just due to my disgust with people vandalizing property/rioting. I have nothing but disdain for both antifa and the white supremacists, especially since one group would spit on me due to their have outdated racial/genetic views that would deem me inferior, while the other is a group of fascists running around pretending to fight fascism.
     
  5. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    The very fact they even required pardons in the first place is evidence they were rebels and traitors against the United States and have no place being commemorated in places of respect in this country.

    This isn't rocket surgery, man.
     
  6. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    I mean, Hitler had served in the German military as a low level grunt prior to becoming the most notorious dictator in modern history, so...

    :agreed:

    Antifa is a confusing organization. They have strong ties to socialist groups and communism, yet they claim to be anarchists. The response to Antifa is also sort of interesting - Trump is the one holding up the show on their legal status as a terrorist group. I think that might surprise a lot of people, but I think that #1 they aren't high priority on Trump's radar, and #2 I think Trump's aversion to the government is deep rooted enough for him to hesitate.
     
  7. Unleash The Fury

    Unleash The Fury SS.org Regular

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    This thread is about the defacing on monuments correct? I wasnt responding to anyone in particular. Im thinking aloud. But to give people a taste of their own medicine, the people that think all white people are racist and throw the white privelage term around alot; they are the ones who want to tear down these statues.......but im sure theyre more than ok with MLK statues still standing. So id like to tear those down in spite of them and see how they would react. Tear them down under the premise of "we dont want to be reminded of dark times". They would react the same way that people in the south feel who feel strongly about their ancestors who fought for independence in the south did, when Antifa wanted to tear down the General Lee statue. Those same people who tore down that statue be upset because they see people tearing down MLK statues for what they think is a ridiculous reason..........oh so how does that feel?

    Oh BTW is anyone familiar with Antifas outright violent planned nationwide protest coming up on NOV. 4th?

    Yeah id google it!!!
     
  8. KnightBrolaire

    KnightBrolaire 8 string hoarder

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    There's a huge difference between being a corporal who got hit with some mustard gas and being a general who still has some of his tactics studied today. There's no real relevance imo. :scratch:
     
  9. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    Agreed. But you said Rober E Lee
    not "Robert E Lee was admirable for being a general," or "Robert E Lee was admirable for not being a corporal who got hit with some mustard gas."
    I think we can agree to dislike Hitler and not to admire him, yet we would agree that he had some wildly novel tactical ideas and that he also served in the military for his country. My point is that having tactical ideas is not reason for being admirable, nor is service in the military.
    Being admirable is all about what you stand for. Period. You could be the biggest, strongest dude in the history of big strong dudes, and you could be the smartest dude, too, but if you use all of your abilities for evil, it makes you a villain, not a hero.
    Robert E Lee was a general. What box does that check? Erich Ludendorf was a general. He out-tactic-ed the Allies in several objectives, so his tactics were at least better-than-average at the time. Is he admirable?
    Robert E Lee served in the military. I suppose anyone who fulfills the requisite of being a general can also check this box off, but what does it prove?

    So if we can agree (which we haven't, I guess) that being admirable is about having admirable principles and sticking to those admirable principles, then what were Lee's principles? Lee never spoke out for nor against slavery, but he did famously speak out against black people after the war, calling them categorically lazy and stupid, saying that they should not be allowed to vote and that Virginia should "get rid of them." Is that admirable? If not, to which admirable principles did Lee adhere?

    I suppose one could try the argument that Lee is admirable because so many people admire him. But, the same sort of reduction causes that argument to fall apart, as many people admired Hitler, and many of the same people who still admire Hitler in 2017 also admire Lee. In fact, most people who adhere to the racist concepts that people of African ancestry are inferior to Caucasians admire Lee, and perhaps I've unfairly made the association between Lee and racism. If Lee was admirable, objectively, for any reason that can be dissociated from his racism, then I'd concede the point. But if Lee is admirable because he served in the military, because he used tactics, or because he became a general, then I must protest on the grounds I outlined above.

    And as far as Lee's tactics being superior - meh, I think the evidence is clear also here that his tactics were not. He did lose the war...a little more than two months after being handed command. After first making general, he hesitated from attacking when the time was best, causing a severe loss of momentum as well as objective. His career as a general was really more bad than good, objectively speaking.

    So yeah, strongly disagree with the Robert E Lee love, but I agree with the stuff you're saying about not vandalizing statues.
     
  10. Randy

    Randy Ooh, Degrasse Tyson-son Super Moderator

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  11. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

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    1. White privilege is a statistical truth, irrespective of your feelings on the matter. People who say there's no such thing as white privilege are categorically the same as flat-earthers. Acknowledging the existence of recorded data =/= being ashamed of being white or "hating white people" or thinking "all whites are racist", or whatever other dumb fucking logical fallacy some ignorant hick might spout.

    2. The majority of Civil War monuments that people are taking issue with were constructed during the Civil Right's movement as a method of intimidation against blacks and propagating white supremacist sentiment. It's called the Cult of the Lost Cause. Please read the link Randy just posted above. That is to say, "we don't want to be reminded of dark times" is not the reason that people are removing and defacing Lost Cause statues.

    3. Though your written demeanor seems to be proud of not having a clear understanding of the discussion at hand, I think that reading through this thread would educate you and help you to not seem so... uh... let's go with 'uninformed'.
     
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  12. KnightBrolaire

    KnightBrolaire 8 string hoarder

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    As I said, I find some of his tactics admirable, just like I do with Guderian, Rommel, Hannibal, and Scipio, etc. There's nothing wrong with learning from the enemy/villains. Hell that's how combined arms became a thing, without us emulating the german blitzkrieg and learning from german generals- modern warfare would be a very different beast. There's plenty of other examples throughout history as well, such as the romans learning from their defeat at the hands of Hannibal. Plus when it comes to battlefield tactics, not learning from your mistakes/learning how to counter the enemy is a death sentence.
    As a whole, Lee's tactics were not spectacular like Rommel's or Hannibal's, I fully admit that. It doesn't mean that he doesn't have some moves worth studying. Also he wasn't officially given command of the entire CSA army until the tail end of the war (mid 1865). Gettysburg/Pickett's charge was a complete disaster and severely injured the troop strength of the CSA. The war was already going in favor of the union from gettysburg on as the union essentially won by attrition/throwing bodies at the confederates. Tactics don't mean anything if you can consistently outnumber the enemy.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2017
  13. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    I'm sure there are tons of fringe movements out there trying to whitewash the history of all sorts of historical figures. I don't doubt for a moment that there are people actively trying to elevate Lee as a hero. I don't really want to publicly make unfair assumptions about those people's actual motives, so I'll leave it at that for now.

    I think there is some trouble with interpretations. Interpreting the short phrase "white privilege" to say that as a white person, you have it better off, is, well...let's just say "not individually and universally accurate," although obviously white people, on average, have it better off than non-whites. Then there's the interpretation of "why" this is so. I don't think there's time to beat that dead horse in this thread, but suffice it to say that there are some very wild speculations.

    I think this is where I keep getting stuck trying to see both sides of the debate. Don't deface public property - ok. But it's never just about that, and as soon as we get to the part where Robert E Lee was some sort of superhero...I just...I just...I just can't keep my opinion bottled up anymore, because it's just so far from reality. I know it's an impossible argument to win, but it doesn't matter. Sometimes I just feel like I have to challenge things that don't make any sense to me, based off the facts as I learned them. That probably makes me an asshole on at least one level, but then, if I am wrong, I want to understand why and then move on to an opinion that is more informed...and if I'm right, then I think it's important to challenge these ideas that come from left field so others who mosey into the discussion don't see it one-sided and end up with the wrong impression.

    Even here in Northern New England, there is a record high visibility of Confederate flags and Lee worship and so forth. I don't get it. I don't know what these people are all about. On the surface, it looks like people trying to emulate Duck Dynasty; drive a pickup truck, get muddy, wear camo, shoot at stuff, talk like you're being graded on how many colloquialisms you use, put up a Confederate flag, talk about how much you love Robert E Lee, etc. It's a cultural movement, just like the people who thought they were Italian when they were following the Sopranos, or the people who thought they were CSI when they were following, well, CSI. Not that the counter-culture of country music and pickup trucks and shotguns is new, but it's a thread that some people are born into and others glam onto, and it seems to be a lot of recent movement toward it in my particular geographical area.

    Okay. But is Rommel "admirable?"

    I mean, there's a pretty big gap between being a fascinating person and being an admirable person, no?

    Do you build statues of fascinating people or admirable people?

    And Lee had options other than surrender. His advisors even told him that the war effort could be transformed into a guerrilla-style war with the CSA moving into smaller groups situated in the mountains until they could regroup and gather enough strength to make another push. After seeing how the US was defeated in Vietnam a century later, I can't say for sure how that would have turned out.

    But, as far as being admirable and getting a statue erected, I don't see any statues build honouring Rommel.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2017
  14. KnightBrolaire

    KnightBrolaire 8 string hoarder

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    I said I find Rommel's tactics admirable, not necessarily the man himself. Though if you want to go down this road, there's a reason books about Rommel have been found in the hands of officers like Colin Powell/Schwarzkopf and it's because he helped bring tank warfare into the 21st century. This discussion has gone so far off tangent.
     
  15. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    Ok, let's go back a step:

    1. Is Rommel "admirable?"
    2. Is Lee "admirable?"
    3a. Does studying someone or something mean it is admirable, or does it mean it is fascinating?
    3b. Does fascinating = admirable?
    4. Do we erect statues of people based on fascination with them or based on admiration of them?
     
  16. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    @KnightBrolaire, I'm just going to keep repeating this until I get through to you.

    We as a nation should not be honoring traitors. Robert E. Lee rebelled against the United States when the South succeeded to defend slavery. Honoring him today honors the beliefs he betrayed his country and rose in rebellion for. It's as simple as that.

    No, this conversation is entirely ON tangent. The problem is you're arguing in favor of an indefensible position, which near as I can tell is the US should honor traitors, not because they're traitors, but rather because they were so good at being traitors.
     
  17. KnightBrolaire

    KnightBrolaire 8 string hoarder

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    Statues are erected of whatever people pay money for (if we're talking about privately funded statues). If it's public funds then yes, obviously they have some criteria (likely public opinion) of what is a valid subject. As I've said in nearly every post I've made in this thread, these are my opinions. I find Rommel and Lee's tactics admirable. I don't claim anything more than that. You can sit there and ponder whether they were actually worthy of my admiration or whether they're worthy of having statues, which is completely outside the scope of what I've been talking about. I'm not in here to have a philosophical conversation about what entails being admirable or fascinating.
     
  18. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    You, as a private individual, are free to believe whatever you want to.

    When it comes to state and local governments displaying statues of traitors in places of honor, though, and thereby endorsing the treason they committed and the rebellion they supported, that's a very different matter.

    You can privately do whatever you want. Arguing confederate statues should remain in public places of honor, however, for any of the myriad of shifting reasons you've given in this thread, is not a defensible position.
     
  19. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    I suppose that's clear enough.

    But if they try to erect a statue of Rommel (the Nazi general) in my town, I will personally appeal to town council to stop it, and if I fail, I will personally tear that statue down, even if I suffer legal consequences as a result. The thought of honouring a man who killed my grandfather's buddies in order to spread the power of a government responsible for attempting genocide against my grandmother and her people, is just something I can't stand.
     
  20. Unleash The Fury

    Unleash The Fury SS.org Regular

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    Im not sure what propagandists website you get your info from, but seeing how emotional and illogical your argument is, i know now to stear clear from you in any political debate. I somehow triggered you with rage to the point where your now lumping me together with flat earthers.......id call that an emotional outburst.

    Btw, please define "ignorant hick"?
     

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