Death penalty

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by mongey, Apr 28, 2015.

  1. mongey

    mongey SS.org Regular

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    so there is a allot of debate flying around Australia today as 2 Aussie drug smullgers got executed in Indonesia over night

    they got caught 7 or 8 years ago ( I think ) and both showed remorse and rehabilitation in jail. after much protest and back and forwarding between our governments they finally did it

    personally I dont support the death penalty . I think yeah there are some extreme cases where it may be justified but deciding where that line in the sand is just too complicated . I def dont fell drug smugging is worthy of being shot

    that said I have been to Bali and they leave you in no doubts in Bali airport when arriving over what happens if you get caught. there is a massive sign over customs that pretty much just says "we shoot drug smugglers."

    I also dont feel its up to me to decide, or my country to enforce how other countries deal with their laws . Again I dont agree with it and I personally will never go there again , but I know allot of aussies who are up in arms will forget about it and go back next year for the cheap holiday and Bin tang singlets

    USA for instance still has the death penalty for extreme cases . how can we be up in arms with indonesia and fine with the USA ?

    thougths ?
     
  2. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    Thier country, thier rules. As you said, it's well known how they treat drug trafficking and the perpetrators certainly knew.

    I'm not in support of the death penalty, for many reasons, but if you're going to play with fire, you have to accept you'll get burned.
     
  3. Hollowway

    Hollowway Extended Ranger

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    Yep. It's their country, so you pretty much have to agree with their rules, because if you're there it's an implied consent that you know and agree.

    OP, what are you actually asking? If people agree with the death penalty, or why the US's system is better/worse than Indonesia? I'm not sure where you're going. Obviously there's a spectrum of how people feel about the death penalty, so if you want us to have some sort of a discussion you're going to have to frame it, otherwise no one's going to want to weigh in.
     
  4. mongey

    mongey SS.org Regular

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    Just rambling I guess.

    question is does the severity of a crime justify the use of the death penalty and how can you actually determine where that line is ? Drug dealers should live but Saddam Hussein dies ? you kill 4 people you don't die but 5 and your gone ? If someone is insane they shouldn't be killed but isn't anyone who commits a heinous crime that hurts people insane in some way ?

    why do people feel so strongly that other countries need to live by their code of morality ?
     
  5. BornToLooze

    BornToLooze SS.org Regular

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    Honestly I think if you are a murder you should be killed the same way you killed people. Either that or let the victims family decide what happens.

    For instance, say you kept someone captive for 10 years, raped them, tortured them and then they finally died from it. Do you really think that person deserves to feel a little prick, everything gets numb and they go to sleep and don't wake up? Or do they deserve every once of pain they inflicted on their victim?

    If you are going to kill people for committing a crime it should be something that terrifies them, not you won't feel anything.
     
  6. flint757

    flint757 SS.org Regular

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    The issue with things so violent or permanent is that most of the time there is not 100% certainty of guilt. How would you feel if the punishment fit the heinous crime and they actually had the wrong guy. if I had to make that call I'd feel terrible. That burden is then left on the family who made that call as well.

    Just look at the number of vindicated death row inmates and it's easy to see that killing someone for a crime you can't be 100% certain happened is not right. My opinion gets a bit more murky when there's zero doubt however (clear eye witnesses, overwhelming evidence, etc.).
     
  7. thrashmetal85

    thrashmetal85 SS.org Regular

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    There is no argument that can be made for State sanctioned murder.

    But that does not mean I am here to demand that be changed. It is by the will of that State's people, and we must show though evidence and positivity the that capital punishment is a poor punishment.
     
  8. estabon37

    estabon37 Melodica Attack!

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    I'll try to be brief, but I probably won't be. I'll put this together in sections, and the first paragraph of each section should be a self-contained argument, so if you want the short version, read the first part of each bit. Here we go...

    --------------------------------------------------------------

    Firstly, I think harsh penalties for drug offences are fucking stupid. We've had these discussions at length in this forum, and much of it doesn't need to be repeated here. Indonesia's harsh penalties on drug smuggling are there as a deterrent, and they're only so effective in this regard.

    My general opinion on drug laws is that drugs should be decriminalised at the least, preferably legalised, and manufactured publicly / privately under set health standards under a sales model that sees the majority of profits going towards social causes such as substance abuse rehabilitation as a best-case scenario. Again, this argument exists in detail elsewhere on this forum, and can be found all over the internet, so going into further detail here just derails the thread from the actual conversation - these particular drug smugglers in Indonesia.

    -------------------------------------------------------------

    Secondly, I'm not a fan of the death penalty in general, but only because it strikes me as sentence-as-revenge. There are people in prison that have committed crimes that would cause the most compassionate people on Earth to see that there is no hope of rehabilitation, a likelihood that they will cause more despair in the lives of others, and that their lives in prison will be restricted to the point that they might as well be dead. So, while I don't think capital punishment has much in the way of benefits, I'm not against it in the cases of 'worst possible offenders'.

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    Third, this is an intensely political situation. The Indonesian / Australian political relationship has been strained for a while. When East Timor held a referendum for its independence in 1999, many local Indonesians acted with hostility, and an Australian-led UN peacekeeping force went in to protect the residents of the new country. Australia has not been popular with many Indonesians since then, and our political bullying of Indonesia over asylum seekers, our military's incursions into Indonesian territorial waters to stop boats full of smuggled people, and the revelation that our intelligence agencies actively tried to tap the phones of Indonesia's last president and may have used our embassy as a 'spy centre' haven't improved the relationship.

    Over the last fifteen years, on and off, consecutive Australian governments of both major political persuasions have tended towards flexing what few political muscles we have at the Indonesians. This makes us kind of unpopular over there, to the best of my knowledge, and it's amazing how many Australians are oblivious to the fact. So many people here complain about 'American intrusion into everybody else's business', but think it's fine if we do the same.

    This is not to say there is large, open, and active hostility between our populations. There isn't. But it's sensitive. This is often the case between international neighbours, so we have to hope that the people in charge will be level-headed and treat one another with respect and dignity. Our Prime Minister is bad at this. Our foreign minister has already made (probably hollow) threats of 'consequences'. In other words, our politicians are probably going to behave like children over this. It's not a surprise.

    --------------------------------------------------------------

    Last point, and hopefully it doesn't seem too unrelated. Our politicians and our public have been appealing for the death sentences to be revoked on humanitarian grounds. We are currently holding thousands of people in detention centres (including hundreds of children), indefinitely (to the point that some have been locked up for years), and our primary defence (apart from a zealous interest in 'fighting people smuggling') is that it is our right as a sovereign nation to defend our borders from undesirable parties.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    That last point bears repeating.

    The governments of Prime Ministers John Howard, Kevin Rudd, Julia Gillard and Tony Abbott have all defended the use of harsh, inhumane laws in the defence of our borders. Those laws have hurt thousands of people, many have attempted or committed suicide while detained for up to two years (far longer than international averages, which include 30 days for the US), all in the name of border protection.

    Indonesia's harsh drug smuggling penalties are a form of border protection.

    For any Australian politician to claim that the executions of Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran is unfair or inhumane is arrogant and hypocritical. As an isolated argument, it is correct. I can't deny that, and as I stated in the first couple of points, I agree. Harsh drug policies are absolutely stupid. Death penalties are unnecessary. But it is not an isolated argument. The long-term, complex factors that weigh down the relationship between Australia and Indonesia can not be ignored, and I'm fucking disgusted at the fact that they are not only being ignored by most people that talk to me about this issue, but it seems that they are ignored because we are largely ignorant.

    So, like everybody that talks to me about this issue, I am saddened, shocked, angered, and want something to be done about the situation. Unlike everyone else, it's not the executions that lead me to this state.
     
  9. Korbain

    Korbain Stay negative!

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    While they knew the risks, i still don't think they should have died. I know its their country, their rules, but its okay for Indonesia to beg for people to get off execution in other countries...

    Besides the fact of how much aid we give that country, i feel like this was a big .... you to us. Their president completely ignored our prime ministers calls, gave out execution notices on anzac day when we asked them to respect that day, etc.

    Some of the other people that got executed seemed to have to turned their lives around as well, some of these guys have been waiting for 10 years + for this to happen. I agree they took a stupid risk and got caught, i think some common sense needs to take place in if these people have changed/been rehabilitated, do they need t die?

    In the case of the Australians, its clear as day they had changed their life around and became better people. They were happy to stay in jail for life to keep helping the other inmates, which is what a lot of people can prove they done up to the day they died. One became a preacher and the other became an artists and was teaching other in mates art.

    Strictly talking about the Australians, as i don't know the full story of the others 100%, i feel it was a massive waste of life for 2 guys that had made a ....ing stupid mistake at like 21 years old, sat in jail for 10 + years and clearly had became better people in that time.

    They had so much more use alive helping people in jail, community work, etc. now they're dead.

    They knew the risks yes, but if you are going to execute them, as soon they're convicted do it then. Don't let them be rehabilitated, turn there life around, then kill them.

    It's a very sad day, just because this was preventable. For murder, rape, etc. fine, that warrants death to me. In the end Indonesia had a chance to prove their jail's can change inmates and make them better people/rehabilitate, which they did, and then they killed them. Idiots

    I could .... on for ages, i haven't even touched on that the Judge apparently offered to take a bribe to stop them being executed. Apparently they were meant have a hearing for that early in May, now they're ....ing dead.

    I'll stop though, there's too much to talk about :p Im sad and ....ing angry, Indonesia is an amazing country ruled by an extremely corrupt government and police force. I don't know why Australia helps them so much, they clearly don't give a .... what we think.
     
  10. estabon37

    estabon37 Melodica Attack!

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    I agree, that fact should be kept aside. Nepal should not be made to feel it owes something to any country that provides aid in the coming weeks, and the decisions of its government should not affect whether or not wealthier countries offer assistance to foreign citizens. Aid money should not be offered with the threat of cutting it short if you have a disagreement later, although our Prime Minister apparently disagrees.

    Let's not mistake the decisions of governments for the sentiments of citizens, and let's not react pettily by suggesting the removal of funding that supports people that have done nothing wrong. I agree with you on most of your points, but the anger I'm seeing and hearing throughout the Australian media and social media tends to be directed at the Indonesian public as much as its government. It's as scary as it is stupid.
     
  11. cwhitey2

    cwhitey2 BlackendCrust Metal™

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    This is one my biggest gripes with the Death Penalty. Other than that I'm all for it.


    Its my American right to have someone killed for a crime they may or may have not committed!!!! (sarcasm)
     
  12. pushpull7

    pushpull7 Banned

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    Too convenient.

    Here's the truth, if you are going to be sentenced to death (which I don't support for more reasons than I can discuss here) then there is 0.0% excuse for it to be 8 years. None. ZERO, zippo, zilch. If you are going to kill 'em, kill 'em. If you can't do that in a humane period of time, it's not acceptable.

    Remind you of anyone? ;)
     
  13. Shewter

    Shewter Tone Zombie

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    I disagree with this. I don't think that the State should be in the revenge business. I'm also about 50/50 on the state dolling out any death to its citizenry, but if we are going to allow it, it should be absolutely emotionless in the way it is carried out.

    6 man firing squad, 4 blanks, two live rounds, no one knows who has the live round. I don't agree with lethal injections, I don't agree with hanging, I don't agree with electrocution.

    Like I mentioned, I'm not 100% okay with the state carrying out death penalties, but unlike the Kingdoms of Old, we can't just dump our dangerous convicts in Australia anymore. I don't think they'd appreciate that.
     
  14. asher

    asher So Did We

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    Never acceptable. Period.

    In this day and age, state sanctioned revenge killing is far beneath us.
     
  15. Korbain

    Korbain Stay negative!

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    I don't want their citizens to suffer, or to cut their funding entirely. Both our countries rely on each in their own ways, Indonesia obviously relies on us a bit more.

    I definitely wouldn't be giving them 600 million a year though lol Honestly my main problems are how it was all handled, the 10 year period, the bribery/corruption, and the overall slap in our face.

    Man they ....ing escorted them to that island with fighter jets covering, half their ....ing military on the streets haha it was like what the ....? These dudes seem to be pretty harmless now. Indonesia used it as excuse to parade around and show of their military. Half of which is probably donated from us...
     
  16. cwhitey2

    cwhitey2 BlackendCrust Metal™

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    I think some people are so ....ed up the "Correctional" system wont work....but something else does.


    Almost 40k per prisoner a year...are you kidding me. I don't even make that much money
     
  17. asher

    asher So Did We

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    Our prison system is anything but "correctional".
     
  18. cwhitey2

    cwhitey2 BlackendCrust Metal™

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    That was my point :yesway:


    Taking a life should be the last resort. But these criminal eat better than most people...would save a us money in the long run by eliminating the 'problem', but there are to many innocent people convicted so its a tough call.
     
  19. asher

    asher So Did We

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    Like it came up in the Tsarnev thread:

    Putting someone on death row in the US is about ten times more expensive than life without parole.

    So no, it really wouldn't, ignoring the fact that too many (any, but a distressing number) of innocent people are executed.
     
  20. USMarine75

    USMarine75 Doc McStuffins Contributor

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    Well, technically, there is... you just apparently don't agree with it. :lol:

    http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/30/us/feat-jeffrey-dahmer-killer-explanation/index.html

    "The man who beat serial killer Jeffrey Dahmer to death inside a Wisconsin prison says he did it because of Dahmer's creepy sense of humor -- which included turning prison food into fake limbs covered with ketchup to resemble blood, the New York Post reports.

    Christopher Scarver, who was sentenced to two life terms in prison for killing Dahmer and another man at Columbia Correctional Institution in 1994, said the confessed cannibal would leave the fake limbs around the prison where others would find them."
     

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