Cutting the mix!!!!!

Discussion in 'Live Performance & Stage Sound' started by goatLuke, Oct 3, 2011.

  1. goatLuke

    goatLuke ss.org Noob

    Messages:
    139
    Likes Received:
    26
    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Location:
    northville,ny
    sorry if this is a little extensive for a first post!!!!!! Ive been wathcing this forum for quite a while but still need some answers so I thought Id join and ask.

    I play in a 2 guitar metal band and I am playing a peavey 6505+ head through an isp decimater pro rack g, a 31 band dbx eq, and a bbe sonic maximizer into a marshall 1960b cabinet.

    the other guitarist in the band is playing a voodoo metal modded marshall dsl 100 into a ibanez ts9, boss 7 band eq, bbe sonic stomp, rocktron hush into a mills acoustics afterburner 4X12.

    we are both playing 6 strings tuned to drop C loaded with emg's.

    I have been trying like crazy to get my rig to cut through the mix well and cant seem to work it out. It seems as though his bottom end is punchier and more present and his mids and highs project better over top of mine. so when I take a solo I am sometimes lost in the mix and when we are both chunking a rhythm I am pushed somewhere to the back, I am there but kind of buried. I am just not sure where I should look. are my settings out to lunch?(I am constantly tweaking to no avail) should I look into a different head to run against his marshall? I will say the peavey seems a little shrill and thin sometimes.(been looking into a engl fireball,evh 5150,splawn nitro, maybe even a bogner) I kind of like the idea of running something with different tubes compared to his el 84's but I am not sure if that even matters or is maybe even the root of my problem. I just want both guitars to sit even in the mix.

    thanks for any insight ahead of time!!!!!
     
  2. KingAenarion

    KingAenarion Resident Studio Nerd

    Messages:
    3,601
    Likes Received:
    162
    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2010
    Location:
    Sydney Australia
    Are you kidding, with that rig you should be able to cut fine...

    Although I have never felt the BBE to be necessary. It tricks you into thinking it sounds good, but in all honesty, it stops your mids from cutting, which is what you want in guitar tone. Mids... Oh the mids!

    Also, what are you using the EQ for?
     
  3. Metalus

    Metalus JP BFR Whore

    Messages:
    2,211
    Likes Received:
    237
    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2009
    Location:
    Miami, FL
    This +100000

    The bbe does nothing but scoops your mids. Id say ditch that from your chain
     
  4. goatLuke

    goatLuke ss.org Noob

    Messages:
    139
    Likes Received:
    26
    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Location:
    northville,ny
    hmmm. I will try removing the bbe for the next practice, although i did feel that it was a step in the right direction when I added it. so much so that the 2nd guitar player ran out and bought the stomp box version the very next week. and i was pretty much back to square 1.

    In regards to the eq I use it to moderately scoop the mids. Could therein lie my problem.
     
  5. Inazone

    Inazone SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    872
    Likes Received:
    98
    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2008
    Location:
    Bloomington, MN
    Don't use the EQ and BBE together if you're scooping the mids at all. The only time I use a BBE is if I have my amp EQ'd flat and want a subtle tweak for the very high and very low frequencies, and then only for recording. Treat the BBE like a Resonance/Presence control if your amp doesn't have those, while using the EQ to adjust either high or low mids to fit in the mix with the other guitarist.

    (Note that I'm not saying to ditch the BBE - it actually works well with most Peavey amps due to their inherent midrange spike - but you should dial in your amp's EQ as close as you can get it, then the graphic EQ to further tweak it, and lastly the BBE if your tone is muddy.)
     
  6. goatLuke

    goatLuke ss.org Noob

    Messages:
    139
    Likes Received:
    26
    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Location:
    northville,ny
    thanks inazone! that is some good info, looking forward to tweaking until my ears bleed tonight.
     
  7. shanejohnson02

    shanejohnson02 Hammer of the Gods

    Messages:
    814
    Likes Received:
    94
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2007
    Location:
    Texarkana, TX
    You may try to work with the other guitarist to ensure that you are emphasizing different frequencies. You should be doing this naturally with the 6505/Marshall setup, but just in case, try some more extreme settings. Often, with 2 guitarists, each guitar sound isn't that great, but when played together they sound huge. I would say tweak the 6505 to bring out the lower mids and the Marshall to bring out the upper mids, and you both should have no trouble hearing each other.
     
  8. Dankslanger

    Dankslanger Banned

    Messages:
    50
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2011
    Location:
    Florida
    Marshalls are mids monsters, Unless your running Bogner or a mesa rectifier your fucked. My marshall JVM only gets stomped on by mesas.
     
  9. Inazone

    Inazone SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    872
    Likes Received:
    98
    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2008
    Location:
    Bloomington, MN
    This is good advice, considering the amps involved. Dial each amp in to suit its strengths. And if at all possible, look at switching from graphic EQs to parametric EQs for the best midrange control.
     
  10. goatLuke

    goatLuke ss.org Noob

    Messages:
    139
    Likes Received:
    26
    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Location:
    northville,ny
    I am hoping to get some time in tomorrow night with the rest of the band and try tweaking the mids out. I may be asking way to much now, but could anyone tell me what frequency ranges I should specifically target? I am going to dial it in the best I can with just the amp and the eq flat and then try and target the mids with the eq.

    what should I look for in a parametric eq?

    i cant believe i feel like such a noob right now :) thanks for all the help, as my first post here i am impressed at how great you guys have been.
     
  11. Inazone

    Inazone SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    872
    Likes Received:
    98
    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2008
    Location:
    Bloomington, MN
    I would hesitate to go into this planning to focus on specific ranges, mainly because each amp has its own "sweet spot" where the gain structure, EQ and speakers really come together for that amp's signature tone. My advice would be to dial in both amps at gigging volumes in a "side wash" arrangement, meaning that they are facing each other and you (both guitarists) are standing between them at approximately equal distances. Start by adjusting the amp EQs to what you each think sounds best for your respective amp. Adjust further to address any problem areas (mud, fizz, generally buried) but make only subtle changes - don't drastically change it. Remember, you still want to like your tone. From there, use separate EQs to further tweak each amp. This is not going to be a case of one person being right and the other being wrong. If you are using graphic EQs, boost a "problem" frequency on one EQ and notch it on the other. Again, nothing drastic.

    I have two parametric EQs - an ART Dual Tube EQ (rackmount) in my recording rig and an Electro-Harmonix Tube EQ pedal on my live pedalboard - and in both cases use the EQ to fatten up my guitar tone, as my band plays death metal in standard tuning. (I actually haven't been using pedals live for the past year or so, but I also changed my entire live rig and tone.) The ART (along with most rack EQs) covers a wider frequency range because they're generally used for PA or recording purposes and not limited to one specific instrument, but of course they tend to have a lot more features than pedals. EQ pedals, on the other hand, narrow in on guitar frequencies, specifically the midrange. If you look at something like a Boss MT-2 Metal Zone, notice that it has two midrange controls, one which operates as a typical mid EQ control and another for the "sweep" to focus in the higher or lower mids. A dedicated parametric EQ pedal will further expand on the frequency controls, still concentrating on the range where a guitar operates. (A bass EQ is a viable solution if you are tuning down significantly, but I haven't used any personally.)

    At one time, Boss and Ibanez both made parametric EQ pedals, but haven't for quite some time. I like the Electro-Harmonix Tube EQ, but TC Electronics makes one that is pretty highly regarded as well. I'm sure there are numerous boutique builders that also offer parametric pedals, but I haven't used any myself. If you prefer to get a rack unit, there are far more options available to you; I like the sound of ART EQs and have owned three different models over the years, but the Furman PQ series is generally considered as well-suited for guitar use.
     
  12. Larrikin666

    Larrikin666 Deadite

    Messages:
    3,375
    Likes Received:
    533
    Joined:
    May 22, 2009
    Location:
    Walnut Creek, CA
    Are you not running an OD pedal as a clean boost in front of the amp? That would certainly help to provide a nice, cutting mid boost. That's pretty mandatory as far as I'm concerned. Next, I'll pull the BBE and EQ out of the equation for a bit. The set EQ on the 6505 to 6,6, and 6....adjust from there. Adjust your gain, presence, and resonance to taste. If you're running the OD in front as a boost, then you won't need a ton of gain from the amp itself. Adding too much gain is going to add mud to the signal and hurt your presence in the mix. You might be able to accomplish what you need without the aide (or hindrance) of what you're using currently.
     
  13. goatLuke

    goatLuke ss.org Noob

    Messages:
    139
    Likes Received:
    26
    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Location:
    northville,ny
    I have a ts9 that I used to use with my marshall head but once i got the 6505 i got rid of it. I didnt feel it did that much cause the amp has so much gain already. even with the clean boost I didnt think it was much of a benefit, maybe ill dig it out and try it as well tomorrow.
     
  14. goatLuke

    goatLuke ss.org Noob

    Messages:
    139
    Likes Received:
    26
    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Location:
    northville,ny
    well I played with my sound a lot at practice and I certainly got it to cut through the mix a lot better. It is going to take me a bit to completely dial it in where I "love" my tone again. But I am treating mids in an entirely different way and it is helping a lot. The one thing I am struggling with now is that at times it can sound a little nasally or a bit like a megaphone I guess. I am hoping ill be able to dial it out next practice a little better.

    As was mentioned I also wound up bypassing the sonic maximizer and had much better results. Tried boosting the signal with the ts9 too didnt like it. should I look into a compressor in the newly empty rack space? shopping around for a parametric eq as well.
     
  15. TemjinStrife

    TemjinStrife Power Metal Cellist

    Messages:
    5,104
    Likes Received:
    471
    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2007
    Location:
    Manhattan, NY
    Don't use a compressor. You've got plenty of compression with all the gain the 6505+ is making. Compression will make it harder for you to cut. Also, don't worry about outboard EQ just yet.

    The "nasally" tone is a good sign. It's what makes you cut through in a band setting. It may sound thin and honky by itself, but with the bass and the second guitar and the kick all together it will sound enormous.

    Regarding the Tubescreamer, set it so that the "Drive" is at 0, the "level" is at unity gain, and adjust the "tone" knob to taste. That will tighten things up a bit and remove some of the top end harshness, but give you more "focus" to your core tone. It does really help. It also lets you run your gain a little lower with to get more punch.

    Punch is really what helps you cut through; a compressed "plays itself" sort of tone is loads of fun at home, but gets buried in a band context.
     

Share This Page