Brussels now...

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Nagash, Mar 23, 2016.

  1. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    Gross oversimplification. And no one sensible is trying to ban an entire religion or blame starving immigrants. So not a great start towards sensible discussion when using such hyperbole.
     
  2. celticelk

    celticelk Enflamed with prayer

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    Which means there are an awful lot of insensible people currently taking up space in American political discourse. (Probably European as well, but America's what I'm seeing.) Saying that "no one sensible" takes that position obscures the fact that many people *do* advocate for those solutions.
     
  3. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

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    I hear comments about the benefit of banning Islam and blaming refugees for terrorism on a regular basis in the United States. In theory, they can see the news, they know that banning Islam is against the constitution, they know that so far terrorists have all been citizens and not refugees... but that doesn't stop them form wanting to ban Islam and spread fear-mongering about Muslim refugees.
     
  4. celticelk

    celticelk Enflamed with prayer

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    But the vast majority of Muslims are not radical jihadists, so obviously the religious element alone is insufficient. Also, saying that "jihadism is a uniquely Islamic problem" is a tautology - it's a specifically Islamic term with no meaning in any other religious context. Radical religiously-motivated violence is certainly *not* unique to Islam, even if the most visible of its current practitioners are Muslims.
     
  5. Sang-Drax

    Sang-Drax God is dad

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    As Celticelk and vilk pointed out, I was addressing specifically the many insensible figures out there who actually propose that.
     
  6. UnderTheSign

    UnderTheSign SS.org Regular

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    Not sure about the UK, but we have a lot of Geert Wilders voters over here... :lol:

    I know more than enough people (including some who I *thought* were capable of reasonable thought) that want alll Muslims gone from Europe because it's ours, our culture is superior, Muslim culture inferior, it doesn't belong here, whatever...

    No one sensible? Maybe, but it's a quickly growing number of people.
     
  7. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    Yes, there are many ridiculous people who say such things, but I think none of them are participating in this thread right now.
     
  8. russmuller

    russmuller Cramblin' Contributor

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    Sorry, you're right. I should rephrase. A 20-something college graduate gets onto a crowded bus before detonating the explosive belt hidden under his jacket. To which faith do you think he subscribes?

    Suicide bombing is almost entirely a product of Islamic terrorists. What other poisoned values and bad ideas motivate this kind of behavior? According to the International Journal of Security in 2007, "More than 95 percent of all suicide bombing attacks conducted worldwide are carried out by Muslim extremists."

    So tell me again how this isn't a uniquely Muslim phenomenon. That's not to say that Muslims are the problem, but there are some terrible ideas embedded in the faith that are unique in their ability to produce people willing to blow up innocent people.
     
  9. UnderTheSign

    UnderTheSign SS.org Regular

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    I think there's a certain glorification of martyrdom in cultures that makes them do it that way. Western terrorists usually want to stay alive so they gtfo before it blows.
     
  10. fps

    fps Kit

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    20%? What planet are you living on :noplease:
     
  11. russmuller

    russmuller Cramblin' Contributor

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    Yes, because the western terrorists don't usually have a sincere belief that killing themselves in the process will instantly transport them to paradise.
     
  12. celticelk

    celticelk Enflamed with prayer

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    Correlation is not causation. Suicide bombing is an act of asymmetrical warfare - it's a tactic used when you have no more conventional options to defeat your enemy. Perhaps it's simply that Muslims are disproportionately likely to be in that situation given current and historical circumstances. In any event, "unique" seems to be stretching it - neither the Japanese kamikaze pilots nor the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka were Muslim. Read https://aoav.org.uk/2013/a-short-history-of-suicide-bombings/ for a decent history of the phenomenon.
     
  13. russmuller

    russmuller Cramblin' Contributor

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    I'm not saying that correlation is causation, but there is strong evidence to show that the ideas of jihadism are unique in their ability to motivate suicidal terrorism. When discussing the rise of suicide attacks by terrorist groups, the Institute for National Security Studies in 2015 said, "These attacks disproved (once again) the claim that most suicide attacks are perpetrated against foreign occupiers. In fact, only about 3 percent of all suicide attacks were aimed at foreign armies. Most were directed against governmental or military targets or local security forces, or were perpetrated in the context of religious and sectarian rivalry." Local military and security forces are rarely better equipped than ISIS, and a significant percentage of attacks are directed at civilian and political targets.

    Consider this other INJJ finding: "Iraq, which began to suffer from suicide bombings only after the entry of Western forces in 2003, has thus far experienced some 1,500 attacks, most a result of religious and ethnic tensions. Nearly one-half of the suicide bombings in Iraq (45 percent) were directed against the civilian population, primarily in restaurants, markets, and mosques, and at funerals and in funeral tents, while the rest (48 percent) were aimed at security forces and police. A considerable portion of the attacks directed against the civilian population were carried out in areas in which there is a dominant Shiite presence, while bombings against military and governmental targets took place mainly in Sunni-dominated regions."

    Now while you may be keen to point out the first clause of that quote, remember that correlation doesn't imply causation. The removal of Saddam as a stabilizing force and our mismanagement of the resulting situation created a power vacuum which these groups have sought to exploit. It's not a last resort against asymmetrical warfare, it's a terror tactic that's used because it is effective.

    I'm not saying that there aren't other factors, but I think you have to be blind to not acknowledge that the religious doctrine of jihad disproportionately motivates people to behave this way. The kamikaze pilots were striking military targets, not killing themselves to blow up civilians. The Tamil Tigers, over decades, didn't rack up as many suicide bombings as we see in a year in the middle east.

    Yes, other people have committed suicide bombings. But when you look at the modern world, it's almost entirely coming from Islamic extremists. When you see these people talk about why they do what they do, they tell you explicitly that it's about jihad. It's religious fanaticism. Yes, other things can and have motivated people to do this, but by and large jihadis are the only ones ringing that bell.

    I think we've gone thoroughly off the rails (or at least I have). All I'm saying is that I think it's foolish to think that the beliefs of people don't play an important part in how they act.
     
  14. will_shred

    will_shred not that good.

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    I find this relevant. Chris Hedges interviews two members of Vets for Peace and they discuss how military occupation perpetuates terrorism. I think this is one of his best pieces yet.

     

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