Birthright citizenship

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by russmuller, Aug 26, 2015.

  1. russmuller

    russmuller Cramblin' Contributor

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    Since the 14th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America was passed, simply being born in the U.S. makes you a citizen by default. But for some reason or another, a slice of the American population seems to think this is not the case.

    Most recently, billionaire @$$hat Donald Trump has declared that he believes that interpretation of the 14th Amendment is wrong and he seems to have some obnoxiously loud supporters.

    The fact is that Trump, and those who agree with him, are dead wrong on this issue. The Supreme Court of the United States (SCOTUS) is the sole entity tasked with interpreting our Constitution. Therefore, the Constitution means what SCOTUS decides it means. This is a built-in feature of our government (like the amendment process itself) to prevent the constitution from becoming stale and irrelevant in a changing world. SCOTUS has upheld birthright citizenship every single time that interpretation has been challenged in the court, thus, birthright citizenship is constitutional.

    The amendment states "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside." The claim is that people who are in the country illegally are not "subject to the jurisdiction" of the U.S. because they have no political allegiance to our government. I am not a legal or constitutional scholar, but I've never heard of jurisdiction being defined as political allegiance before this iteration of xenophobia reached our media.

    Of course, they're within our jurisdiction to police, otherwise aren't we just kidnapping foreign nationals?

    For a country built by immigrants, it's hard to imagine any other path to citizenship besides going through the naturalization process to obtain citizenship. What did I ever do to deserve citizenship in the USA besides being born here?

    On the flip side, many other countries do not have birthright citizenship. If I fathered a child with my girlfriend while on vacation in Germany, it would not be a German citizen.

    I'm curious what the rest of you think about this issue, particularly those with any kind of legal/constitutional background, or members outside of the United States. I welcome your opinions (even if they fly in the face of mine). I'm genuinely interested to explore reasonable viewpoints.
     
  2. cwhitey2

    cwhitey2 BlackendCrust Metal™

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    As an American TAX payer... Gtfo.


    As a human, I welcome people with open arms... If you go the legal route. I totally understand people entering the country illegally, but I have zero sympathy if the system catches up to you.

    This birthright citizenship I get. Do I agree no. What happens when parents of a 4 year old have the INS called on them? (That's an actual question)





    (Drunk post)
     
  3. Señor Voorhees

    Señor Voorhees SS.org Regular

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    I don't know what I feel to be honest. I think our immigration system is ....ing embarrassing, and something definitely needs to be done. I see people say they support people who do it the legal way, but they fail to acknowledge just how hard it is to do it the legal way. I think people should treat Americans how we treat Mexicans.

    At the same time, like you said in OP, birthright citizenship is a weird thing. My fiance for instance was born in Germany to two US citizens. I don't think she should just be given citizenship for that.

    It's a whole big thing that needs to be fixed, but I'm not even close to being the one to ask "how."
     
  4. cwhitey2

    cwhitey2 BlackendCrust Metal™

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    No one ever said being legal was easy.

    I think it takes around 7 years if you actually wait in line... Like you should.

    I get the whole 'melting pot' thing... Except taxpayers are blue burdened with the bill. The last thing I want my tax dollars spent on is an 'illegal' human.

    I really have a beef with America, not illegals.
     
  5. celticelk

    celticelk Enflamed with prayer

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    As you point out, that interpretation directly contradicts a Supreme Court precedent of over a century's standing (US v. Wong Kim Ark, for those inclined to look it up). Any foreign national within the US who does not expressly have diplomatic immunity is subject to our jurisdiction. Congress could try to redefine "jurisdiction" by statute, but that would be a tricky business. I don't believe that repealing or modifying the Fourteenth Amendment is going to get much traction, even in this political climate. I don't see that there are any other significant options available for those arguing to change the law.
     
  6. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    The tax argument is stupid.

    The fact of the matter is they pay ~$12 BILLION with a B in taxes per year.

    To break that down even further, about 8.1 million of the 11.4 million total undocumented immigrants pay state and federal taxes, even though they're here illegally and face less social and economic benefits than legal immigrants or citizens.

    As a tax payer it's in your best interest to streamline these folks coming into the US, and the more we get lax on deportation and imprisoning them the more they pay.

    The majority are employed (doing jobs most rather not do), about 8.5 million. As for welfare benefits, only about 15% more undocumented immigrant households with children received any form of assistance compared to legal citizens.
     
  7. asher

    asher So Did We

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    :ninja: by Max.

    I fail to think of a single argument against it that isn't a) effectively just about legal oddities (wordplay ref. above) b) blatant racism.
     
  8. Alex Kenivel

    Alex Kenivel Psycho, dont engage

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    I just think there's too many fvcking people everywhere..
     
  9. TRENCHLORD

    TRENCHLORD Banned

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    All we need to do is build a reliable wall, be it literal or figurative I could care less.
    If we would just gain total control over our borders and then properly regulate entry, then there really isn't any need to change the amendment or even re-examine it's intent.

    How can we gripe about "anchor babies" when we knowingly accept 8 month preggo foreign girls for temporary "visits" :lol:.

    No reason at all to deport children who were born here.
     
  10. russmuller

    russmuller Cramblin' Contributor

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    The bill of rounding up and deporting them, or the bill of paying white people to do your manual labor?
     
  11. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

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    Am I drunk or is Trench actually on the right side of this one?

    Trench. :wub:
     
  12. TRENCHLORD

    TRENCHLORD Banned

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    I'm basically a Path To Citizenship guy, but only if it's coupled with a seriously overhauled security/entry system.
     
  13. Dcm81

    Dcm81 SS.org Regular

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    As a foreigner I never really understood the whole "born in the US = citizenship" thing. From my standpoint, all it does is offer people a loophole to having their children become U.S. citizens.

    Somewhat OT but what interests me much more as a foreigner reading this:

    is the right to bear arms and yada, yada. How is that not stale and unfitting in the modern world?
     
  14. celticelk

    celticelk Enflamed with prayer

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    As far as I know, the factor that's had the single biggest impact in reducing illegal immigration in the past decade is the 2008 economic downturn. If there are no jobs, people stop coming. The lesson here is that those who want a reduction in undocumented immigrants should forget about better border security and start cracking down on employers. It's cheaper and more effective. Republicans will never argue for this solution, though, because it's insufficiently xenophobic and targets business owners.
     
  15. Ibanezsam4

    Ibanezsam4 SS.org Regular

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    it should also be pointed out that the Democrats will also make no moves to fix it as latino populations tend to expect greater levels of social safety nets and thus are more apt to vote Democrat in elections.

    i would put myself in the column of build a wall and stick to current enforcement laws with an added guest worker program.

    the latter would accomplish a few things 1) regulate the cheap laborers which are currently being exploited 2) provide better screening for medical issues and sanitation 3) immediately take the money out of the pockets of mexican drug gangs which are currently making money ferrying people across the border via smuggling routes.

    no one wants to talk about it, but our current system seriously empowers the wrong people.. however if you discuss it frankly you're accused of hating refugees and are some form racist.

    ... while we're at it we should probably streamline the immigration system.. 7 years is a little much in the modern age
     
  16. asher

    asher So Did We

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    Could someone actually define what they see as the problems of (illegal) immigration are?

    Is there a problem with actually embracing our history of (..more or less) embracing people with open arms?

    Much of the source of immigration from Mexico is incredible, incredible gang violence, as well as generalized economic misfortune. Not that we can just go solve that, but there's a genuine humanitarian sense to a significant portion of it.
     
  17. Millul

    Millul SS.org Regular

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    We in Europe (and here in Italy in particular) are facing a similar problem, and similar discussions, due to ongoing poverty, violence and unrest issues in SSA, north Africa, and more recently Syria, which have caused a surge of illegal immigration from these areas...but it's only people trying to escape poverty and death!

    Angela Merkel just proclaimed that Germany will welcome people fledging from the Syrian conflict - I was really surprised, in a positive way, by such a statement...I hope she'll be able to stand by it!
     
  18. TonyFlyingSquirrel

    TonyFlyingSquirrel Cherokee Warrior

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    Sorry, we're full, can't fit anymore unless you apply first & go through the process.

    This problem has been in existence since 1492 & hasn't stopped and our people have been fighting terrorism ever since.

    This isn't the land of the U.S. Govt. It's the land of the people that the Creator gave it to thousands of years ago to steward. One cannot own the land, we are only stewards.

    How then can the U.S. Govt claim that it is theirs?

    Did they buy it?

    Did they trade for it?

    :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:



    There, now that my militant cultural tendency is out of the way...

    Look at the math.

    If you have $10 in your pocket and you want something that costs $15, you wait. Pure and simple.

    We have more people in the U.S. than we have resources for, and immigration is only part of that puzzle. Importing more than we export reduces jobs in the U.S. If more jobs existed in the U.S., then we could allow with a greater degree of practicality for more applicants to be awarded citizenship. The system is indeed flawed when it allows for people to exploit loopholes over and over again simply to get their foot in the door and milk resources at the taxpayers expense with no expectation to contribute themselves.

    I admittedly do not have all the answers, but I do agree that Trump understands math quite well and how to manage on a large scale. While I certainly don't agree with him on many, many other issues, that much is true when it comes to managing a large infrastructure, and once you remove the emotion from it, it starts to make some practical sense.
     
  19. lemeker

    lemeker SS.org Slacker

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    The way I feel about is if you want to come over, come on over. Just do it legally. Take the time to learn to read and write the language. I agree the current "path" could be revamped so it doesn't take so long. It shouldn't take as long as it currently does, but hey our politicians priorities are in order....

    The only reason I feel this way is that if I were to move to another country, I'd expect to have to be held to the same standards. Then again, I have never lived outside of the US, so what the hell do I know...right!!!
     
  20. asher

    asher So Did We

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    Columbus Day, aka Native American Genocide Day?

    Colonists took the land by force, and then took over the rest of the country by force from its residents. I'm not sure what the hell you're getting at.

    That's not actually how the math works. That's a grossly oversimplified model of import/export and manufacturing and completely ignores that most of these immigrants wind up working terrible service jobs or backbreaking agricultural work.

    Not to mention they're not costing taxpayers money; they're actually paying taxes on every single item they buy without seeing the benefits.

    You also need to be specific about which resources you think we don't have enough of, because I can almost guarantee it's actually a question of distribution, not supply.

    Trump's driven his companies bankrupt something like 9 times. He's a terrible businessman. Ignore all the bluster.
     

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