Armed terrorists seize control a federal building in Oregon

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Explorer, Jan 4, 2016.

  1. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    Well, just in time to demonstrate the truth of a recent Department of Homeland Security intelligence report warning about the threat of domestic right-wing terrorism...

    DHS report warns of domestic terror threat - CNNPolitics.com

    ...now we have a group of domestic terrorists in Oregon, who have seized control of a federal building in Oregon.

    Armed group takes over Oregon wildlife refuge building - CNN.com

    As the following piece points out, there are no women and children involved, so time is on the side of law enforcement.

    Face it, Oregon building takeover is terrorism - CNN.com

    To me, some of the more interesting parts of the whole situation:

    The Hammonds were convicted of arson, not terrorism, and one of the witnesses against them was a family member who was told to take matches and to set the fires, with expenses for not just damage but for fire control, and which put firefighters' lives at risk.

    Bundy's terrorist group has been rejected by the Hammonds themselves, so Bundy is now stating that as an alternative, he wants land owned by the citizens of the United States given away.

    The last link has a very clear explanation of why this is terrorism, and lays out a good plan for dealing with these terrorists.

    Go back to your spider holes, idiots. When you threaten law enforcement, while rejecting the rule of law and the Constitution, you're thugs.
     
  2. ElRay

    ElRay Mostly Harmless

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    My big question is why:
    urban + [knife|toy gun] + walking away + dark skin = death​
    but:
    rural + rifle + openly breaking the law + caucasian = stand off​
    :scratch:
     
  3. Chokey Chicken

    Chokey Chicken mouth breather

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    Perhaps I just don't value my own life, but if I worked there, I'd hop the line and try to work anyway. Either they do nothing and cease being taken seriously, or they off me giving a green light for cops to light them up. I legit think people should start hucking bottles or something. Let the situation escalate so the cops can jump in with no questions asked.

    For what its worth, what I read is that they started a "controlled" fire for reasons. The fire grew to become out of control and they ended up torching land that wasn't theirs. If this is true, an arson charge is reasonable. Armed thugs siezing a government facility however is terrorism.
     
  4. Randy

    Randy Ooh, Degrasse Tyson-son Super Moderator

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    Oregon Was Founded As a Racist Utopia

    :idea:
     
  5. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    While I don't disagree with your message, it may be as simple as the fact that it's a LOT easier to take down one guy with a gun out in the open than a dozen guys with guns in cover.
     
  6. ElRay

    ElRay Mostly Harmless

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    True. Escalation has a big part in the decision.

    But the current Oregon stand-off started with just two/three folks (initially unarmed) and has been allowed to expand to the point where there are children there too. And then you have Santorum claiming that the armed take over of a federal facility is equivalent to to the unarmed campers in city parks that don't allow camping. No law enforcement action against the former, but the Occupy Wallstreet folks were arrested/dispersed.

    I guess my post was kind of a corollary to crap like Freddie Gray (didn't kill anybody) was described as "the son of an illiterate heroin addict" and Robert Dear (killed 3) was described as a "gentle loner". Even CNN succumbed to this level of ingrained/unintentional/passive racism.
     
  7. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    Not on this forum, but I've noted in the past that there are many in the home schooling movement who argue against children having rights, arguing that all rights should invest in the parents.

    You see that kind of thinking concentrated in groups like the Home Schoolers Legal Defense Association, which fights against things like, say, doctors and teachers being required to report possible abuse to authorities for investigation. Such reporting is a threat to the autonomy of parents regarding their children, even if the HSLDA has no actual suggestion for children to be protected when abuse is noted. To give an example of a family who buys into the HSLDA fight against mandatory reporting, I believe the Duggars, parents of serial incest/sexual offender Josh Duggar, are in this camp.

    In the long term, children who are raised to conform to their parents' authoritarian views and beliefs do worse than children who are raised to become healthy and independent adults.

    My personal opinion is that people who think about their own rights instead of on how to make their children happy and healthy are scumbags. I think it's a form of how alcoholic parents twist their kids to cover and support their alcoholism.

    ----

    With that said:

    You have a situation where a group is already acting like they think there might be armed violence in the area.

    Now that group is bringing kids in, according to a woman who has been visiting the group and who is a member of the patriot militia movement.

    http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/oregon_militants_in_high_spiri.html

    If this is true, why? I think the most reasonable answer is to deter the use of force against them. They are counting on law enforcement not engaging to protect the kids, even after the group leader has made clear that they are willing to kill law enforcement.

    This group, if reports are true, is willing to use human shields, like other groups who have used kids as shields in recent wars.

    Would any of you deliberately put your children into a position where one could be killed by gunfire, purely out of your own free will, in order to advance your ideology?

    Or would you want to make sure your children were safe, regardless of what actions you were taking?

    Thugs, scumbags, and (if this is true) chitty parents to boot.
     
  8. ElRay

    ElRay Mostly Harmless

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    The other thing I've become curious about is why has mass media not reported on the christian fundamentalism of these "Christian Terrorists"? Is it because they're not doing Journalism 101- level investigations? Or is it because they're afraid to? Or is it because they actively want to suppress evidence of christian terrorism/sedition inside U.S. borders?

    From the source regarding "Domestic Terrorism": Definitions of Terrorism in the U.S. Code
    and from the source on sedition 18 USC Ch. 115: TREASON, SEDITION, AND SUBVERSIVE ACTIVITIES :
     
  9. McKay

    McKay ʎɐʞɔW

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    I find the fact that the White House, which currently supports gun control, to the extent that they're bypassing congress, declines to call this an act of terrorism interesting.
     
  10. Konfyouzd

    Konfyouzd Dread-I Master Contributor

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    ^ Okay, Romney. Regardless of what you call it, it's clear to everyone what it is. Would the use of different semantics actually change anything?
     
  11. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    I think the best response I've seen so far was on twitter - "Today I learned the plural of a black man with a gun is 'thugs,' a brown man with a gun is 'terrorists,' and a white man with a gun is 'militia.'" There's undeniably an element of that in play here.
     
  12. Dog Boy

    Dog Boy SS.org Regular

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    They will get bored and go home once they run out of Natty Lite and sober up
     
  13. SD83

    SD83 SS.org Regular

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    So... a bunch of heavily armed (white) men set camp in an abandoned federal building for a few days already, did I get that right? Claiming they would defend themselves if they were to be attacked? There is not a single word of that in the German media. Not one. And reading this
    Bundy: Militants 'forwarding our plan' to privatize Oregon wildlife refuge | OregonLive.com
    I can't help but think. "what the ....?". Do those guys just walk around in town, holding press conferences, openly stating they basicly want to take over the Wildlife Refuge? Am I missing something or is it really as crazy as it sounds?
     
  14. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    Yes, it is really as crazy as it sounds.

    Interestingly, a lot of the politicians who embraced Cliven Bundy, the rancher who refused to pay his fees and was acting like the stereotype of "welfare queen" that they normally would dislike, are not embracing his son Ammon Bundy in this seditious act.

    Another interesting fact: Like his father Cliven, Ammon has no problem denouncing the government while taking money. Ammon was willing to take a federal loan for half a million dollars, in spite of his posturing.
     
  15. thraxil

    thraxil cylon

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    The federal government should say "OK. Fair enough. You got us. We usurped this land from its rightful owners. We need to make that right." and hand the it over to the Native Americans that it originally stole it from, perhaps with an agreement that they would continue to maintain it as a public land/wildlife refuge.
     
  16. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    I know someone who has gone to more than one really where white supremacists have wanted people to go back to where they come from. He joins in, and is hard to ignore, being a big Native American, and that normally embarrasses the idiots.
     
  17. asher

    asher So Did We

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    I like this: "white privilege performance art"

     
  18. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    And now, the Native American tribes who were removed from the land and who still claim it have argued that bundy et all should leave.

    Native tribe blasts Oregon takeover - CNN.com

    That certainly seems to trump the yee-hawd narrative in terms of valid claims.
     

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