Arizona becomes the Anti-immigrant gapital of the US

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by renzoip, Apr 23, 2010.

  1. renzoip

    renzoip I Am the Table

    Messages:
    1,946
    Likes Received:
    207
    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2008
    Location:
    Ihate, FL, US.
    WTF...

    U.S.?s Toughest Immigration Law Is Signed in Arizona - NYTimes.com


    - Politics aside, I find this highly insulting to all the people of the United States. How are you supposed to suspect someone is undocumented or not?? Obviously, this is an invitation for racial profiling. Worst of all, it will affect US citizens and residents too since people may get in trouble for forgetting their wallets at home or for providing shelter or even transportation to an undocumented person, even if this one is a family members. I believe this outright violates constitutional rights of citizens as no one should be stopped by the police without probable cause.

    Not only that but illegal entrance/stay into the country is legally a civil offense not a criminal offense. And to add insult to injury, these "criminals", once arrested, are denied of the constitutional rights such as fair and speedy trial, being judge by a jury of peers, cruel and unusual punishment, among others. This law has been condemned by both Reps and Dems because it is a systematic way to constrain a sector of the population from any kind of upward social mobility.

    Regardless of how one could feel about undocumented immigrants, I believe this trade off of democratic values and constitutional rights for the sake of "national security" is absolutely irresponsible.Talk about government being too involved in people's life... :noway:

    End of my rant.
     
  2. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

    Messages:
    25,903
    Likes Received:
    2,730
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2008
    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Ah, only two more months in this scorched desert.

    Though, I will say, I'm not entirely against this law.
     
  3. tacotiklah

    tacotiklah I am Denko (´・ω・`)

    Messages:
    6,586
    Likes Received:
    934
    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2009
    Location:
    Lancaster, CA
    Man I'm split on this one. I think immigration reform is a definite must (especially in states like Arizona, California, New Mexico and Texas) but this is not the way to do it. This will probably be the only time I'll ever agree with the bastard, but Cardinal Mahoney has a point. This reeks of nazism. (recall that jews had to wear star of davids to identify themselves.)

    I'm not sure in what way we could reform, but employing illegal immigrants is still a problem where I live. I don't have a problem with immigrants, I just want them to sign the guest book on the way in ya know. Maybe say hi, instead of sneaking in and flooding the job market.
     
  4. renzoip

    renzoip I Am the Table

    Messages:
    1,946
    Likes Received:
    207
    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2008
    Location:
    Ihate, FL, US.
    I know what you are saying. I mean, I'm not saying that illegal immigration is ok or that the government should reward people for breaking the law. It's more about constitutional rights and civil liberties what I complain about. Also, while many think of undocumented migrants as poor people who work on fields/factories/gardening, there is a large sector of middle and upper middle class undocumented people who enter the country legally and stay past their visa time. Most of these people rather use an entrepreneurial mode of production (opening small businesses). So I think if anything, the punishment should fit the "crime".

    It's just crazy to think that for instance, NY Revolutionary Muslims who send death threats to American citizens are granted more constitutional rights than these people. :nuts:
     
  5. jpxplayer

    jpxplayer SS.org Regular

    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    3
    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2010
    Location:
    North East
    This is about our population growing at a fantastic rate we cannot sustain. Keep in mind the legal immigrants are on social programs.
    They like the Unions are draining us monetarily.
    This was once a land of opportunity.. America offers freedom.
    Over the last many years it has offered a Free ride for most immigrants. It has to end. California is broke because of immigrants. The State has more than a 50% immigrant population. The crime rate is highest in the Nation. They have to go home. We simply cannot afford them. They are Anchor's.
    We can thank our corrupt politicians.. For them massive numbers were all about votes.
    I say we vote out all incumbent politicians on Nov. 4th. Lets vote in all new fair minded who won't sell there souls. We need a clean slate.
     
    xmetalhead69 likes this.
  6. orb451

    orb451 Banned

    Messages:
    1,978
    Likes Received:
    742
    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2008
    Location:
    LV426
    Well I for one see this law passing as a good thing. I'm an immigrant AND I'm Latino and I still think this is needed. Sure it's ripe for abuse, that's a given with just about any law. But it's Arizona's choice, the people spoke, or their elected officials did on their behalf. Something, anything, needs to be done with the Illegal Immigration issue. While this may seem a bit heavy handed, the times have called for a heavy handed solution.

    No more pussy footing around the issue. Since opening up the border and providing amnesty isn't going to fly, you get this instead. Maybe at some point a better balance can be struck. The way I see it, illegal immigrants have no US rights. I don't give a flying fuck if they're here already, in my mind they have no constitutional protection or special status other than breaking the law. They should be deported back to their country to wait at the end of the line like everyone else trying to get over here legitimately. There should be fewer roadblocks to becoming a citizen or permanent resident if you can prove:

    1) You're willing to work for a living and not sit on your fat fucking ass watching Springer, collecting food stamps and WIC benefits

    2) You've proven you're willing and able to learn, speak, read and write English

    3) You've proven that no greater than 10% of your monthly income will go right back across the border to help your ailing family/friends back in "insert country of origin here"

    If they're willing to adhere to those 3 things, then by all means, come to our country. Other than that, fuck off.
     
    wannabguitarist and MaxOfMetal like this.
  7. InTheRavensName

    InTheRavensName Dog says yes ^.^ Yes

    Messages:
    3,392
    Likes Received:
    96
    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2006
    Location:
    Derby, UK
    ^ This. Honestly, I wish we'd bring in something similar in England.
     
  8. renzoip

    renzoip I Am the Table

    Messages:
    1,946
    Likes Received:
    207
    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2008
    Location:
    Ihate, FL, US.
    I can agree with the first 2. But on the third count, I think people should be able to do spend their income however legal way they wish. Do I think sending money back is a great idea? No, but after all they its their income, not mine.
     
  9. leftyguitarjoe

    leftyguitarjoe Correct-handed

    Messages:
    4,071
    Likes Received:
    1,058
    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2009
    Location:
    Newark, DE

    Being the son of a 32 year UAW member, I have to disagree with you here.

    Worker's rights are vastly more important than money.
     
  10. renzoip

    renzoip I Am the Table

    Messages:
    1,946
    Likes Received:
    207
    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2008
    Location:
    Ihate, FL, US.
    For one, I think using such a harsh measure to control population growth is something I would expect from a state like China, not the US. Also, both immigrants (documented or undocumented) and non immigrants contribute to crime rate. However, there is a bigger correlation between crime rate and economic situation. Crime rate generally increases as the economy situation, even in highly homogeneous societies.
     
  11. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

    Messages:
    25,903
    Likes Received:
    2,730
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2008
    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Though the economy doesn't do too well when illegal immigrants are sending the bulk of their paychecks back to their country of origin. Nor when we (the US) has to pay for social programs, as well as miss out on potential tax revenue.

    It's all interconnected.
     
  12. renzoip

    renzoip I Am the Table

    Messages:
    1,946
    Likes Received:
    207
    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2008
    Location:
    Ihate, FL, US.
    I see what you are saying but it takes a lot more than just that for the economy to decline. Again, I don't agree they should do that. I also think that social programs should be available but much more limited in order to reduce dependency. On the other hand, if these people can pay a fine for breaking the law, and have a permit that will allow them to drive, work, study, and open a bank account, they will be able to pull themselves by their own bootstraps, pay taxes and become productive members of society like you and I. Let's also keep in mind that there is a significant sector of undocumented people of medium & upper medium class who came here legally and support themselves through their businesses and study paying out of state tuition. Therefore, they have no government dependency or need to send money back. What a reform could do for them is provide opportunities for business to grow and start actually provide employment.

    Just saying...
     
  13. orb451

    orb451 Banned

    Messages:
    1,978
    Likes Received:
    742
    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2008
    Location:
    LV426
    Ideally. Ideally that's what we would expect and want to happen. But I think the reality is far from that. Too many of them come over here from Mexico because that's who we're talking about, and start baby-mills. Pumping out kid after kid knowing full well how and what to do to game the system. Yes there definitely should be limits on welfare and the ability to sit unproductively whilst the rest of us pay for it. I agree that some middle and upper class immigrants have proven their ability to come here and pay their fair share, don't need to send money back and are largely assimilated into the general population.

    However, I believe they are the exception and not the rule. The rest need to come here and get jobs, and they need to speak, read and write English fluently.

    If this law makes it more difficult for them to sit on their asses when they get here or makes it more difficult for them to leech off of our resources (welfare, foodstamps, WIC, etc) then I'm all for it. If some off them get all butt hurt because of profiling or some other bullshit they should look inwards towards their OWN communities and start self-policing them. Encourage their OWN people to get jobs, stay out of gangs, off of drugs, off the streets and to work and live productive lives and to blend into this wonderful country of ours. You don't blend in by refusing to speak the language. You don't blend in spending all your money on solely Latin owned establishments. You don't blend in by sending large chunks of your money straight back across the border to subsidize your brother's drug habit.

    America is a melting pot, that means ALL these cultures can co-exist. You don't automatically lose your wonderful *identity* just by speaking the language. If anything you have a leg UP on your competition in the job market because you can read, speak and write fluent English AND Spanish. That makes you more LIKELY to find a job, any job.
     
  14. renzoip

    renzoip I Am the Table

    Messages:
    1,946
    Likes Received:
    207
    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2008
    Location:
    Ihate, FL, US.
    I wouldn't oppose a law that restricts the access to social programs for people who really don't deserve it. But that IMO is an issue relating income rather than legal status. Here in Fl, people blame other minorities (who do have legal documents) for leeching into the system, pumping kid after kid and all that stuff. In fact, most societies have a group within them who are blamed of such things. I agree that more people need to look inwards to their societies and self-police them. Many people and NGO make such efforts but more needs to be done. Having that said, I also think that providing access to upward social mobility can help many people stay out of crime/gangs/drugs/welfare.

    As far as integration and identity, its interesting that here in Fl, we have a large Cuban exile community who have been able to thrive through entrepreneurship. However, they have relied on an enclave where they sell to, buy from and hire people of their own community. Many don't even speak English since they don't find it "necessary" and will hardly hire you if you don't speak Spanish. That does not exactly promote integration into the mainstream US society. However, since they are granted legal residence as soon as they get here, nobody seems to have a problem with that. It's their private businesses and its their prerogative what they want to do with them.

    Either way, this isn't only about Latinos. There are plenty Asian and Eastern European immigrants who don't have documents that qualify as a proof of legal residence. And it is not even only about the undocumented, this would affect legal immigrants, permanent residents and US citizens that may look suspicious.
     
  15. tacotiklah

    tacotiklah I am Denko (´・ω・`)

    Messages:
    6,586
    Likes Received:
    934
    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2009
    Location:
    Lancaster, CA
    There should be fewer roadblocks to becoming a citizen or permanent resident if you can prove:

    1) You're willing to work for a living and not sit on your fat fucking ass watching Springer, collecting food stamps and WIC benefits

    2) You've proven you're willing and able to learn, speak, read and write English

    3) You've proven that no greater than 10% of your monthly income will go right back across the border to help your ailing family/friends back in "insert country of origin here"

    If they're willing to adhere to those 3 things, then by all means, come to our country. Other than that, fuck off.[/QUOTE]

    QFT!

    and with that 3rd one, quite a few illegal immigrants cross the border and get goverment assistance and use that money to pay coyotes (smugglers) to bring their family over with them too.

    You know if it was less than 1,000 people a year I might not even care that much. But when you're seeing your community become mostly latino in short order, then it's time to put up some restrictions. Again, nothing against latinos, but also again, please come here legally. There is a reason you have to wait quite a while to get in. ;)

    Meanwhile guys like me (U.S. native born) go to work at a walmart or a jack in the box and find that 95% of the working force there is hispanic and they have a hispanic only attitude (no gringos allowed) I can't help but be pissed. Not to mention I've been turned down for jobs because I can't fluently speak Spanish. (and this is for simple shit like stocking the backroom mind you. Not for shit like becoming a doctor where you are obligated to talk to people of multiple ethnic backgrounds)

    Call me a lazy asshole but why the fuck should I be forced to learn anything other than English when this is primarily an English speaking country? Because I might hurt the feelings of people that shouldn't even legally be here? They have no constitutional protection because they are not U.S. citizens. Only U.S. citizens can enjoy the rights and privileges of the U.S. Constitution. You want those rights? Take the proper steps through I.N.S.
    Don't come here illegally and expect to have any of that kind of protection.

    It is through that god awful term Political Correctness that things have become a clusterfuck in the southwestern states. Natives can't find jobs because illegals have flooded the job market (and the blame has to go on the corporations that hire them as well. They do so knowingly and as a means to exploit illegal immigrants as cheap labor since they can be paid under the table and far below minimum wage. Who are the illegals gonna complain to right? Companies can simply blackmail them into silence by threatening to turn them in to I.N.S.)

    This is a sensitive issue for sure but as orb said, we need to stop beating around the bush and look at the facts. The U.S. has more immigrants than it can provide for and we need to close the floodgates for a while or face worse overpopulation than we are already experiencing.

    Oh and before anyone thinks that this is a racist rant understand that I live in southern california where this is a real problem. I don't see a ton of Asian or eastern europeans flooding the job markets here. It's illegal mexicans. Plain and simple. If it were any other race (white, black, brown or otherwise) I'd be railing against that shit too.
     
    orb451 likes this.
  16. Varcolac

    Varcolac Frets? What frets?

    Messages:
    2,380
    Likes Received:
    296
    Joined:
    May 8, 2009
    Location:
    London
    So whatever happened to "give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free"?
     
  17. MaxOfMetal

    MaxOfMetal Likes trem wankery. Super Moderator

    Messages:
    25,903
    Likes Received:
    2,730
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2008
    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Well, it turns out they weren't really tired, just lazy. They just keep staying poor from either not working or sending all the money they do make to their respective "homelands". As for "free" we didn't mean free from taxes, nor did we mean free ride. ;)

    By the way, wasn't that inscription inscribed on a plaque mounted in the Statue of Liberty, which is located at Ellis Island, which was meant to be a hub for LEGAL immigration?

    There's a huge difference between legal immigration, and illegal immigration.

    Any other 125 year old quotes meant for fund raising? :lol:
     
    BigPhi84 likes this.
  18. Adam Of Angels

    Adam Of Angels The GAS Man Contributor

    Messages:
    8,685
    Likes Received:
    692
    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2008
    Location:
    Mount Pleasant, PA
    I better stay out of the sun and keep my beard shaved in fear that this spreads Eastward.
     
  19. tacotiklah

    tacotiklah I am Denko (´・ω・`)

    Messages:
    6,586
    Likes Received:
    934
    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2009
    Location:
    Lancaster, CA
    Whatever happened to the jobs and benefits that should be going to those that are here legally? Sure, if you jumped through the hoops and did all you're supposed to do, then by all means, come and prosper. But if you wanna sneak in to live off of the hard work of others and exploit them, then get the fuck out. They have a word for that.......it's called trespassing.

    Another way to put it:
    You have a great home right? You have a fridge full of food, all your guitars and equipment. You have nice furniture and plenty of space in the house. Now if a homeless guy you meet really needs a place to stay to get his/her life back on track, you might let 'em crash at your place right? But what would be the conditions of that? They'd have to bring in some cash to pay for the food they eat, and the utilities they use up. Only fair right? But what happens when it gets to be too much and they devour the food in one sitting, destroy the furniture, get all pissy when you wanna change the channel on YOUR t.v.,etc.? It might be time for them to go right.

    Now think of it this way....Say you don't wanna help 'em and that's their problem. (and don't pretend like you don't do this otherwise there would be a fuckton of homeless people in your house right now)
    But say that homeless person follows you home and figures out how to sneak in and stay under the radar. All the sudden that delicious pizza you saved for lunch for work the next day disappears, your shit keeps coming up missing and you finally discover that this person has been living in your home without permission for a while. What are you gonna do? Let 'em live there saying 'oh well, fuck it. they needed a place to crash anyways."? Hell no, you're gonna call the cops and get their ass thrown in jail for breaking and entering among other charges.

    Same thing here. Let 'em in if their gonna really get their life straight and do something with it. Otherwise let the leeches burn to a fuckin' crisp out in the hot sun. There are plenty of ways (legal ones) to get into this country. I don't feel too sorry for people that break the law as a means to take food out of my mouth.
     
    MaxOfMetal likes this.
  20. Spaced Out Ace

    Spaced Out Ace 0 0 1 0 0 6 5 0 3\

    Messages:
    2,073
    Likes Received:
    57
    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2010
    Location:
    Washington
    I remember learning about this thing in grade school... It was called Ellis Island, and they screened immigrants. They also made it very hard to get in, and you were rejected for damn near anything. They also had to take a citizenship class from what I remember, and it even broke up families. Do remember, most of these families didn't have money for their relatives to make the trek multiple times in hopes of entrance to America. Oh yeah, and their last names were changed to something a little less "ethnic" and confusing to the American public. Definitely think the Europeans had it a a lot harder in this regard, and during WW2, many would agree we should've let Jewish people in wholesale, made everyone of them legal, and save them from Nazi Germany's iron fist. The jewish were a lot more deserving of citizenship than anyone else who has came threw Ellis Island legally or threw one of our borders illegally.

    I remember hearing those countries further south than Mexico, are not allowed entrance into Mexico at all, but that's just what I heard so I may be totally wrong.

    Definitely this.
     

Share This Page