Anyone on here particularly religious?

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Hollowway, Jul 24, 2017.

  1. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

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    Yeah, people imagine Hitler being prodded and poked by men wearing red spandex miles below the Earth's crust, but if we're going strictly by the Bible, Hitler is just a dead corpse that eventually someday when the Apocalypse happens will become reanimated but then NOT be taken up to heaven by Jesus.


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    But the larger point I was trying to make is: if you believe that God sends non-believers to hell irrespective of their choices, actions, and life here on Earth, it means you think they are bad people. Or it means you believe God sends good people to hell. Religious indoctrination or being "ingrained" are surely excuses, but it doesn't change the fact of the matter. You can be polite or choose your words specifically to not say that I'm going to hell, but if you believe it you believe it and you believe it so quit trying to act like you shouldn't be judged for your own personal thoughts and feelings only just because someone else told you to think and feel them.

    It's like if I were a raised a neo-Nazi and said to my buddy Morgan Goldstein "No offense Morgan, and I say this with the deepest respect, but Der Juden are a plague on society and everything wrong with this nation is orchestrated by them. That doesn't mean we can't be friends though!" and having the expectation that everyone just be cool with that like c'mon man that's just the way I was brought up!
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2017
  2. r33per

    r33per SS.org Regular

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    In short, yes.

    I believe this not because of a person is a follower of different faith or none, but because mankind's born condition makes us destined for an eternity of judgement, separated from God. The only "fix" for that is trust and faith in Jesus Christ i.e. His divine person, life, death, resurrection from the dead and the work that he accomplished here on earth. Why is this significant to me? I'll explain below. What follows is my understanding of the very core of the Christian faith and, whilst I do not indend to offend, it is an offensive message.

    I believe that God is our creator, that we were thought of, considered, sculpted and molded by Him and have His very breath in our lungs. The Bible's account of our first days on earth is one of perfection and genuine peace. That all gets shattered when we decide to disobey the one "must not" command God (the "don't eat that fruit" one). At this point "sin" enters the world and we become subject to it's punishment: death. This also separates us from God - a holy God who deals with all that is unholy (sin) with judgement and punishment. It's not like it was a surprise: He said quite specifically to us "if you eat the fruit of that tree, you'll die".

    As such, we are sinners - not because of what we do but because of what we are. It's like our core or our essence or something like that. We're all that way and have all done something that is unholy in God's sight and therefore subject to punishment. I believe that punishment is Hell. (As an aside, I do not believe in hell being a place where we're just tormented by a devil with a pitchfork: I believe hell is where the devil himself is also punished. He is the instigator of mankind's sin and hell is created for his judgement and punishment as well).

    No amount of right-living can fix our relationship with God; no amount of religious observance can fix our relationship with God. The price of sin had to be paid and that was that the blood of an innocent be spilt as a sacrifice for all the people (see the Jewish Passover). No human could ever fulfil that requirement (we're all born with sin) and so God's plan was that His own son would be born as a man and - being sinless - therefore meets the requirements of the sacrifice required once and for all. Jesus is born to Mary, lives a sinless life and is crucified. There, he pays the price for all of our sin - a debt that we could never pay ourselves - and makes the mending of that relationship with God possible, the eternal consequence of which is the freedom from the judgement of Hell and an everlasting life with God.

    The thing is that it requires a trust in Jesus and acceptance of this gift. Kinda like "don't eat that fruit or you'll die", God gives us the choice. With each choice their is a consequence: accept and live, reject (actively or passively) and die.

    I do not send people to Heaven nor condemn them to Hell: only God has that authority. The only thing I know is that to believe is Jesus Christ is to have my relationship with God mended - or, in fact, made new - and that I have a certain hope for what follows this life. Conversely, that to reject Jesus - by an act of the will, by passive negligence or by by putting our trust in something other than him (from Buddha to finance to political systems to ourselves) - means death and punishment in Hell. I believe this because that's what I read in the Bible. And I believe that the Bible is God's word to us.
     
  3. r33per

    r33per SS.org Regular

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    I believe that it comes from the Valley of Gehenna
     
  4. r33per

    r33per SS.org Regular

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    Yeah, you're right: I do believe that good people will be in hell. I also believe that bad people will be saved from it. Why? Because I believe it is all fundamentally about what you do with Jesus Christ, not how you have lived. It's unfair and at the same time a very true equality: the offer is open to everyone at any point in their lives. It does not include based on past "goodness" nor exclude based on past "badness" - there is no means test.

    And yeah, I was brought up Christian. I know loads of folk who were brought up Christian and rejected it, and others brought up athiest and made a desicion to trust in Jesus Christ. How we are brought up has a bearing, but perhaps not as significant as we might think - the Christian church continues to grow in hostile (to Christianity) environments like China, India, Khazakstan, North Korea and elsewhere.
     
  5. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    Right, well, like I said, according to the Bible, when people die, they die. On judgement day, everyone is restored back to life and judged by God (Jesus). Those who believed in him are devoured by God to augment his power, and those who did not are destroyed in a lake of fire. There is nothing about eternal suffering outside of simply being destroyed and no longer existing. A passing mention of a geographical location where it is hot and dry is hardly the same as the belief that non-believers will all be bound and tortured eternally by little red men with pitchforks and wings deep below the surface of the earth.

    The modern concepts of heaven and hell are pagan ideas, and have no basis in the Bible, yet they have been assimilated so deeply into modern Christianity that they are base pillars of the religion.

    Not that there is anything intrinsically wrong with sourcing part of the religion from outside the holiest scripture, but, for a group who pride themselves so much on their holy text and take it so literally (speaking for protestant Christianity in general), it seems very odd to me.

    Jesus' words in the Bible were all about love and forgiveness. Paul's words in the NT were all about judgement and punishment. When I was a kid, and I was deep inside of it, it seemed silly to me. Now, as an adult, it seems even more silly to me. How did the teachings of Jesus in the NT end up leading to the teachings of Paul in the NT? No rational outsider could read the NT and not notice the drastic paradigm shift between the gospels and the later epistles.

    Most of my friends are "Christian," to varying degrees, although they all have vastly different beliefs about moral standards, about the afterlife, and about Jesus. It's because they were told slightly different versions of the same Bible stories as kids. If you grew up without outside influence of religion, and then hear these stories as an adult, you have an entirely different perspective.

    Have you read through the Bible recently? I really think that it was the first time I sat down and read the entire thing front-to-back that I first started questioning the core of it all. You slog through the OT and all of the weird stuff that seems like such nonsense in it with the idea in mind that the NT is going to be the reward. You get to the gospels and there is so much great stuff in there, and it seems so much more full of wisdom than the later OT, but then there are the espistles where it kind of starts slipping into weird territory again, and then BAM - there is Revelations. And after Revelations, you are done, left reflecting on the frankly ridiculous prophesies of the apocalypse. My first inclination was that most of it just simply doesn't belong in there. So I researched why what's in there is in there, and it just quickly fell apart from there, for me.
     
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  6. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    I do like this frank admission of the injustice of the christian god's blackmail scheme. Infants are held responsible for another person's actions (original sin) by yahweh, and if they die before being able to get in good with yahweh's kid, they're forever out of daddy's good graces.

    It's not about a loving father, but a jealous, controlling father who insists on being approached in only one precise way.

    ----

    What I personally find interesting is how many contortions are necessary in the apologetics (the special pleadings and defenses for religious dogmas/doctrines) in order to not drive off those outsiders who werent indoctrinated from childhood.

    It's a hard sell to defend sending a disabled kid like Charlie Gard to hell just because yahweh unfairly stacked the deck against his ever learning about jesus.

    It's also kind of strange, if first learning of the cosmic protection racket when an adult, to hear such strange justifications for thinking someone is supposed to be kind and loving: "Hey, neighbor! I've got a torture basement where I'm gonna torment those who don't praise me for having killed my kid! I'm the good guy, right? Think carefully before you answer! Oh... and did I mention that infants are fair game for torture?"

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    Keep in mind, a lot of this stuff isn't even in the bible. It's dogma which has developed outside of what some are claiming is yahweh's final word, as heavily edited and altered as it has been by human beings.
     
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  7. pondman

    pondman Build Whore. Contributor

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    Everyone has a god, a lot of people just don't realise they have one.
     
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  8. marcwormjim

    marcwormjim SS.org Regular

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    Bad pondman. Now my cat is crucifying the dog.
     
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  9. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    Evidence, please!
     
  10. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    Care to elaborate?
     
  11. marcwormjim

    marcwormjim SS.org Regular

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    I think I see what he means. I mean, pondman is our god.
     
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  12. DistinguishedPapyrus

    DistinguishedPapyrus SS.org Regular

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    I read both these posts last night and this morning... or whenever you posted it, have been thinking of this alot today. Sorry if it came off that way, by "deepest respect" I meant it simply to say that I respect others peoples rights and beliefs. Trying to not make it seem like I look at everyone as good and bad. Honestly, I can be a dick sometimes, I don't mean to. This is certainly not a topic on which I would want to come off in that manner.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2017
  13. HeavyMetal4Ever

    HeavyMetal4Ever SS.org Regular

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    The real problems arise when people start taking them seriously.
     
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  14. lewis

    lewis SS.org Regular

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    With how science has developed it seems obvious to me that there IS a scientific answer for everything. Therefore there is no way this whole "God"/Son of God" BS is real. Coming back to life?

    The Bible was a fictional book created to help people lead a good moral life (in the eyes of whoever wrote it)
    In fact, the idea of "well I read it in a book so it must be true" is laughable.

    I also like the idea of making your own luck, i.e if you work hard enough at something, you will be rewarded. Religious people however take all credit away from themselves and their own hard work and instead "thank God for giving me this"

    The other issue I have is interpretation i.e :
    "I read the Bible and it told me to kill 38 people who are left handed" for example.
    Its now used as a scape goat to try and justify bad behavior.
    The Science we do have really proves its all BS which is why alot of religious people hate the fact of Dinosaurs etc.

    And the Terror threat for example. How in any way are they any different in the name of religion, to any other BS that our History is littered with?. You had different churches causing all sorts of carnage over the years. So much barbaric BS and its not only limited to being a Muslim ffs.
    My issue with it in a nutshell is how dated it all feels now. When people believed/created all this in those eras gone by, they also though the damn planet was flat FFS. We were an ignorant and quite honestly stupid race then (still stupid but for different reasons). How has some prehistoric ideal from these times, still a recognized thing all these eras later?

    Pathetic. "I must pray because God will smite me"?
    Also tying in religion and ghosts together makes me laugh.
     
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  15. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

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    wait, you're not saying that you believe in ghosts, right? The way you wrote it is ambiguous to me
     
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  16. lewis

    lewis SS.org Regular

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    I think Ghosts and paranormal is just something completely separate that we have not found the scientific explanation for yet.

    What I meant was religious people who say Ghosts are Angels, and or his ghost will now pass onto Heaven, and all that utter nonsense.
    and light reflecting off dust particles in photos are "orbs" = Spirits wandering the earth because they have unfinished business before they go to heaven etc etc etc

    All a complete load of nonsense and the 2 things should not be remotely linked imo
     
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  17. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    If I turn into an orb-only-visible-to-cameras when I die, my unfinished business will be photobombing every poorly lit photo possible. :lol:
     
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  18. High Plains Drifter

    High Plains Drifter SS.org Regular

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    I'm not going to pretend that I've read the Bible cover to cover... Haven't even read page one.

    As a kid, I was taught that as long as you truly believe in God, that you will go to Heaven ( Go Team Presbyterian!). But how the hell was I to have such convictions at such a young age? Gotta say that seemed ridiculous! Then... due to some scandal at our beloved church, parishioners disbanded and found other houses of worship. ( Team Evangelical now!). I guess that God was still God, Jesus was still good ol' Jesus, but now my new pastor wanted me to bring in my Pink Floyd and Kiss albums to be "evaluated and possibly disposed of". Wtf?? I mean... my dad's George Jones and Arlo Guthrie albums? Nope... Jesus was apparently cool with spousal abuse and littering but not if it meant plugging into an amplifier. So at that point my head was getting a little screwed up as plenty of contradicting and inconceivable aspects were filling my impressionable young mind. I'm extremely grateful that my parents weren't fanatical and in fact, I don't think that my dad was particularly resigned to any aspect of Christianity tbh. Makes sense as my moms parents were both quite religious and my dads parents were not. I will say that there were plenty of positive moments as well as some genuinely nice/ neighborly people that I met throughout my interactions with the church but I don't necessarily feel that there is any relevant connection between the two... idk.

    So the man that I am today feels that the entire mess can be interpreted however one would LIKE to interpret things... be it in regards to apparitions, the afterlife, the written word, historic timelines, etc, etc. What I beleive is that religion is about brainwashing from the standpoint of the church and it's about faith from the standpoint of the actual flock. I have always found it a bit difficult and far-fetched to be able to genuinely find solace from religion but if that's what works for you, then that's awesome. It's already been touched upon in this thread but religion really does appear to rely upon the vulnerability of human-beings. It seems to have been "designed" in a way that is quite foolproof imo... many translations, all kinds of denominations, varying criteria, and plenty of exceptions to fit whatever suits someone best... along with the premise that nothing has to be proven ( because again... Faith!). It utilizes ( or capitalizes upon) everything from guilt to glory in order to hypnotize the masses and that's just something that I can't genuinely support.
     
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  19. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    I think I posted about this once, but I have a friend who deals with some pretty severe mental illness who decided a while back that they needed some spiritual guidance and someone directed them to a church (I dunno what kind of church). The church convinced her that her problems would be solved by throwing out anything that didn't lead directly to Jesus. Clothes, music, all kinds of decorations in her home, etc. all gotten rid of. Inevitably, it solved zero of her problems, and she now felt worse because she lost a bunch of things she felt an attachment to. I don't doubt the church meant well, but it clearly did more harm than good in this case.
     
  20. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    To drive that point completely off the topic of the thread, I'll relate an amusing story.

    1994, probably my favourite year of music- Soundgarden got some serious recognition, Dream Theater was kicking butt, Green Day became my #1 guilty pleasure, STP and Smashing Pumpkins were both pretty good and pushing the "grunge thing" in new directions that seemed to me to be more stimulating, and there seemed to be a cool new band on MTv every week. I was pretty involved in my church at the time, doing tons of volunteer work, and the church was happy to provide me with a work reference so I could get a paying job the following summer.

    My youth pastor was a really cool guy. He was more interested in the personal faith rather than the greater organization of Christianity, but he reached out to the youth group to bring in their favourite CD's for him to critique the lyrics. It was the most entertaining youth group night ever, listening to all sorts of metal and rap, all with highly inappropriate lyrics for church. :lol:
     
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