Anyone on here particularly religious?

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Hollowway, Jul 24, 2017.

  1. El Caco

    El Caco Djavli te ponesli Contributor

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    That's the pot calling the kettle black now isn't it. Remember when you called me irrational along with anyone else who thinks we are living in a simulation.

    And yet here you are still not understanding the point I have tried to make but still think I missed your point.
    How is that relevant? Refer back to the theory. It doesn't matter when it happens, all that matters is the possibility it could happen at some point. If there is any chance that at some point in the distant future humans are capable of simulating their existence then chances are it has already happened and we are actually in a simulation.

    Why do you need me to share the current state of technology with you or the experts opinions of how far away technology is from being powerful enough to simulate a human brain? You can see the current state of AI as it was widely broadcast recently. You can also read expert opinion on how close our technology is to having the processing power to simulate a brain and when they suspect we are likely to reach the processing power required.

    Again no. Again you have missed mine. You can't prove anything is fact. Your facts are based on your faith. You have chosen to believe something. We all choose to believe things. You believe in this thing you call reality, you can't prove that we are not in a simulation. You can't prove that your reality hasn't been altered by what we might call gods or supernatural forces. You can't prove there isn't a devil that leaves fake evidence or deceives you into believing lies. Your safe place is your perceived facts. If they are challenged you believe the people who think so must be irrational or dumb. Like it or not your safe place is as much a faith as theirs. And if you want to simply ignore a possibility because you do not like it, then you don't understand science. Because the idea of Simulation is not supernatural, it is not magic, it is something that can be understood by science. The problem is the existence of the idea means our science has a potential point of failure if we are actually living in a simulation. That is because at any time what we perceive as reality can be altered by things outside of our simulation. Remember in science we must remove outside influence that might alter the result.

    I have. It really is pretty arrogant of you to assume that I have not. You have no idea what I have learned or experienced. Despite appearances I have not shared much with you here. I'm not here trying to defend my beliefs, that would be silly. I'm arguing an idea, a concept.

    You said that believing in Simulation is irrational. My argument has been it is no more irrational than your beliefs. I don't need to share my reasons for believing it. The only thing to understand is that your faith is based on something you can't prove and is just as irrational as any other belief.

    You also challenged the idea of people choosing beliefs and I tried to explain this. It is tied in with what I just said above. We all choose to believe something. Some of us use some kind of perceived logical reasoning, others not so much. I tried to explain the logical process of how I might choose certain beliefs. Of course this is founded on existing beliefs, beliefs I don't feel I need to explain and are not the point of the conversation. Perhaps you feel that by challenging my foundation beliefs you are invalidating my argument. But you can't challenge my foundation beliefs because you don't know why I believe and I'm not going to allow this to derail to that as it is irrelevant.

    The difference you don't seem able to perceive is I know everyone has beliefs that can't be proven. Everyone acts on faith. You don't seem capable of accepting this. The foundation you choose is the one that makes the most logical sense for you based on the evidence you have been presented, as do I.
     
  2. El Caco

    El Caco Djavli te ponesli Contributor

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    How far do you think we are from Exascale computing and then from Zettascale computing?

    Do you know what has already been achieved in brain simulation?
     
  3. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    I'm not sure, computer hardware is not something I care much about. But hypothetically let's say we have an infinitely powerful computer -- we don't know what algorithm to run on that computer that would simulate human consciousness.

    Yep. But creating AI through simulation of the human brain is not a very respected endeavor in the field of AI. It's misguided. But simulation theory itself doesn't attract serious merit either - it's more of a cute thought puzzle.
     
  4. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    Except that it's not though. I've made no claims regarding what's outside of the observable universe. In fact I've made no claims of belief at all. I at no point said anything other than that I think some things are untrue- and admitted that those are not objective truths either. I've stated no beliefs about anything that can't be observed, and stated that I'm comfortable with not knowing everything. I make zero attempt to reconcile anything unobservable, let alone unprovable, whereas your claims fall outside of that.

    Lets put it another way:
    If you believe something simply because you can't prove otherwise, then why pick that one specific thing that can't be proven, when there's limitless things that can't be proven to chose from? You can't prove there is no God, but you don't believe in God? You can't prove that more than one consciousness exists - what if your experience is unique, and the existence of other minds is an illusion? What if we're all actually dogs in hibernation taking some kind of hallucinogenic drugs and the observable universe is actually just a really elaborate bad trip?

    Here's a good one:
    If this is a simulation, then how does our computer tech here have anything to do with what would be needed to simulate us? It doesn't matter if we're close to simulating brains, because that tech isn't real, it's part of the simulation as well.

    Lets also not assume that a brain simulation = life simulation. A brain is one thing that happens to be alive, it is not life itself.
     
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  5. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    I have to say that this is the first time I've witnessed a religious debate online between a simulation theorist and a skeptic.

    I guess the broader point is that we have some diverse religious representatives on the board, but it is highly unlikely that most of them will comment, unless they are atheist. :lol:
     
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  6. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

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    the bigger question is whether or not he's a simulation theorist only inside the simulation or if he's a multi-simulation theorist who could be in a simulation in a simulation (in a simulation...)
     
  7. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    ^ To be fair, I think he covered that part already.
     
  8. IGC

    IGC OCDG

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    Nope, not particularly religious here.
     
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  9. El Caco

    El Caco Djavli te ponesli Contributor

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    It's an important step.

    But I'm ready to call quits on this convo with you. Your first sentence says to me you don't seem to understand what I'm saying and I'm repeating myself. Maybe it's my fault, perhaps I have written it poorly. It's possible because at this point I haven't slept for 32 hours, I had something that needed to be finished and I was posting while procrastinating last night because I was so tired. I finished it now but I'll wait until tonight to go to sleep. I'm tired now and I couldn't be bothered.

    Think I'll go watch Hart of Dixie with the wife.
     
  10. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    I don't think we misunderstand eachother so much as just disagree on fundamental points. Approaching things from entirely different angles. There's nothing that says we have to agree on anything.
     
  11. NateFalcon

    NateFalcon SS.org Regular

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    Great stuff!! Lol...religious based debates ALWAYS end up like this...real deep thinkers that end up rambling nonsense
     
  12. marcwormjim

    marcwormjim SS.org Regular

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    Easy to throw around insults within your own simulation.
     
  13. chopeth

    chopeth SS.org Regular

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    It's not only a matter of spirituality and life conception.

    There are countries, like mine where the church is a huge political and economical party. Thankfully, many of you live in communities where religion is taken to a second place in your modern and prosper states, where it should be but in my place the church is against science and development, medical, against the woman liberation, they foster unveiled hate against the different, the gays and lesbians in their churches and in the television channels.

    They are a huge economic power. In my country it is a real shame, they get a lot of money from the government while some poor starve with the crisis, and they pay their debts, marching against political parties that are too much on the liberal side. They helped the fascist traitors of the republic and originated the Civil War in my country.

    Just for a final and bizarre matter. They can register what propierties they consider possession of the church from a few years ago. They are stealing all old buildings in my place, just as an example, the MOSQUE of Cordoba 900 AD was "bought" by them for 30€, they changed the name to the Cathedral of Cordoba and get a lot of money from tickets to visit it.

    I repeat it again. Religion is a cancer, and the church is the last phase of methastasis in this nauseating disease.
     
  14. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    To start, I'm going to make a clear demarcation between *justified* belief and *unjustified* belief:

    I'm pretty sure that tomorrow, the earth will continue to revolve as it has previously. The previous evidence of it happening over a long period justifies thinking it will likely happen again, barring some large disaster. It is a *justified* belief.

    A long time ago, someone here claimed that through power of will, he could turn his guitar into a unicorn. We asked for evidence, but the clown only presented verbal justifications. If he believed in that mental transmutation of guitar-to-unicorn, it was unsupported by actual evidence and was an *unjustified* belief.

    Now, let's look at how someone tries to argue that *all* belief is equally unjustified, regardless of the observable evidence supporting the justified beliefs and the complete lack of evidence for the unjustified beliefs.
    There is just as much evidence for leprechauns being involved in all chemical processes as there is for this universe to be a simulation, that is, none. You can make up all kinds of speculations, but without actual observable evidence, you fail to meet the burden of proof for your hypotheses.

    You seem to have forgotten, when attempting to display your erudition, that one cannot prove a negative. The burden of proof lays with the one making a positive claim.

    Gravity, to give an example of the opposite, evidence-based approach, is an observable phenomenon even if a person claims not to believe in it.
    In order to challenge someone from a firm position, one needs evidence. Those who want to challenge the best evidence without presenting evidence of their own, and think they will be successful, are indeed irrational and dumb.

    An idle speculation with no evidence supporting it can be safely ignored. It's clear that you do not understand science.
    Again, evidence is needed before postulating an explanation. You're putting the cart before the horse.
    If there is hard evidence of reality being altered outside of the claimed simulation, please present it.

    Einstein claimed that mass bends space, and that light would follow the curve of such bends. Experiment proved him correct, as unbelievable as his hypothesis was. Evidence... such a low bar, yet apparently too high for some claims.
    But again, evidence is provably observable, and is a firm foundation for understanding the cosmos.

    You, on the other hand, are arguing that ideas without evidence should be given as much credence as ideas with evidence. That's irrational.
    Without evidence, it's irrational and illogical to choose unjustified beliefs.
    I *can* challenge your claim about reality because there's no evidence for it. You're making a positive claim, so the burden of proof is on you.
    You haven't given *any* objective evidence. Again, low bar is too high for you.

    ----

    TedEH correctly points out that there is a difference between simulated intelligence and *synthetic* intelligence. It doesn't matter how much processing power you toss at simulated intelligence, as it is not a matter of *more* simulation of thinking, but of creation of an actual thinking entity.

    It's always interesting to speculate in the absence of evidence, but not understanding the difference between simulating a decision tree process and creating a synthetic intelligence is problematic when attempting to make a knowledge claim.

    ----

    Incidentally, I posted a few years ago about having built a Hieronymus Engine, powered initially by two D-cell batteries, which created an energy field preventing any deity from granting prayers, including prayers requesting regrowth of amputated limbs. It also prevented paranormal powers from functioning. The engine was designed to just start the process, and the field has become self-sustaining and impenetrable by any and all supernatural/paranormal means. This is why no one manages to produce hard evidence for such phenomena.
     
  15. marcwormjim

    marcwormjim SS.org Regular

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    This thread is an ugly, ugly thing.

    I almost want to facetiously defend El Caca's universe simulation-dogma just to swat the dilettante posters using horrendous folk-logic below the junior college 101-level to shoot fish in barrels. I've seen so many euphemisms for the concept of plausibility in the thread, yet no instance of the word - Just the cheapest ego boosts of lurkers waiting to call delusional people stupid in their own stupid way.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2017
  16. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    Well this post certainly didn't make the thread any less ugly.
     
  17. marcwormjim

    marcwormjim SS.org Regular

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    I have my mom's face :(
     
  18. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    If anyone, including me, is using bad logic to make a case, why not raise the level of discourse by pointing it out? There's nothing to be gained by saying you *could* swat at people but won't, especially if you have already done so.

    Ironically enough, you've managed to indulge in two P-words yourself, both meaning the same thing: praeteritio and paralipsis. Well done.
     
  19. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    1. People aren't wearing enough hats.
    2. Matter is energy. In the universe, there are many energy fields which we cannot normally perceive. Some energies have a spiritual source which act upon a person's soul. However, this "soul" does not exist ab initio, as orthodox Christianity teaches; it has to be brought into existence by a process of guided self-observation. However, this is rarely achieved owing to man's unique ability to be distracted from spiritual matters by everyday trivia.
     
  20. DistinguishedPapyrus

    DistinguishedPapyrus SS.org Regular

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    I'm Christian, and just to try to explain what that means to me, to give a different perspective: I'm not "religious"... in fact I hate the term. Religion is simply a lifestyle, a set of rules to follow. "Do this, don't do that, pay this much money, give to this charity, cut your hair like this, wear these clothes, don't watch those movies, don't listen to this music... or else you'll anger the gods!!!"... etc. it really is kinda tribal and primiative thinking. That's not what I feel I have, though from the outside I understand how people would tend to view it that way, unfortunately I am a creature of habit and get stuck in cycles sometimes, and it totally looks like a system of religion. I was not born into it, rather I was a non believer for the better part of my life. I viewed scientific theories as solid truth and shunned any notion of a religion or a god.

    The way I would describe what I currently have is a relationship with Christ. He is my leader, boss, father, lord... however you wanna call it. I pray to him, he talks to me, and guides me in the things I should do, not like a booming voice from the clouds or something like that, but in the spirit. The way this came to be was that I was at a really low point in life about 7 years ago. Suicidal, angry at several of the closest people in my life, drinking, flipping through porn and crap on my laptop. Day after day, I just hated myself. I was just about ready to do something regrettable, but one day just for the heck of it I was driving home from work and shut off my radio, got real and sincere, started talking out loud to God. I said stuff like "where are you, show me something, a sign, are you even real, can you fix my life like these people on tv say, make something appear... etc." the next day on my drive home from work I felt the spirit of the Lord come over me. It didn't scare me, I knew immediately what it was, it was the most incredible powerful and loving feeling I have ever felt. The Lord spoke to me, in the spirit, he said that he knows every pain I have ever been through, he has been with me from the very beginning of my life, he knows every person on this planet and all their struggles too, and that he is here to help.

    I was so blown away at what I had felt, I went into my appartment, tears streaming down my face, bawling like a baby and laughing too, out of pure joy at what had just come over me. I felt surrounded by a pure and holy presence. But it changed my life and my views in literally about 45 seconds. Made me re-question everything I thought I knew. I got into the Bible and started reading it and accepting it as truth. I think this is called a spiritual awakening. Look up Brian Welch from Korn, see some of his videos on YouTube. I may not have the fame and money like that guy, but I can totally understand what he felt. I feel like he had a similar experience, as well as many, many other people over the world. This isn't a logical thing, it's not something I can explain to someone else, in any way that they can just figure it out.

    Now back to the original question of the thread, as for the other religions, I simply do not know. All I can say is I was changed by my own personal encounter, when I didn't believe in any gods, I called out randomly to a god, and Christ answered, not any others.

    It's not about rules of any kind. It is a living relationship. That's why I won't bash on anyone about anything they do, but simply tell them about what has happened to me.
     

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