Anyone on here particularly religious?

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Hollowway, Jul 24, 2017.

  1. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    Not really though. Religion and science both serve the purpose of giving you a source to build an understanding of the world from. They're both the mechanism through which we try to fill the gaps in our knowledge of everything.

    Except that it doesn't. And those things are only supernatural or philosophical because science hasn't closed that gap yet. A god pulling a fireball across the sky exists to explain something that eventually science gives us the truth about. A god creating the earth in 7 days exists to explain things science hasn't always had the answer for.
     
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  2. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

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    Something I find unusual:

    1. Many if not most varieties of Christianity believe that God had his hand in the creation of the Bible. If you raise up points about how the Bible was written by men who never even knew Jesus, voted on by councils of people who were working to fulfill a political agenda, that there are other gospels written but left out of the Bible, etc, they will say that God created the ultimate Bible through divine intervention.

    2. But if that's the case, then why are they always defending the stuff that's written in there with alternate translations? You talk about how rich people are bound for hell because it'd be easier to fit a camel through a needle, and someone will quickly tell you that camel is a mistranslation of rope and that actually it's only just kinda tough for rich people to go to heaven. Or that eye of a needle is ancient slang for a kind of Jewish architecture that is a narrow passageway. If that's the "real meaning", then how come God f///ed it up when he was guiding our hand in making the Bible?

    It seems like logically you have to pick one or the other, but I frequently see Christian apologists picking both.
     
  3. KnightBrolaire

    KnightBrolaire 8 string hoarder

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    it's easier to keep building on top of a shaky foundation and reinforcing illogical ideas than to actually consider that it's just a collection of writings made by humans and not their omniscient omnipotent god.
     
  4. BenjaminW

    BenjaminW SS.org Regular

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    I was born and baptized as a Lutheran. My mom's side of my family was Catholic and my dad's was Protestant and Christian Science. Eventually my dad became a Catholic and we started going to church almost every Sunday but that pretty much stopped once my brother stopped being an altar server when he graduated from 8th grade. I've thought about being atheist or agnostic but I would probably consider myself maybe between agnostic and moderately Catholic to put it that way, I guess.
     
  5. Konfyouzd

    Konfyouzd Dread-I Master Contributor

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    I think the second thing but not everyone else does. I'm also not religious but from the outside looking in the "all praying to the same thing through different channels" thing is what appears to going on. It's like everyone thanks the universe in their culture's own special way, which in some cases may involve damning everyone else.
     
  6. El Caco

    El Caco Djavli te ponesli Contributor

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    I kind of subscribe to some kind of Simulation Hypothesis. If we are living in a simulation then the possibility exists that all beliefs can be true, it doesn't mean that is the outcome. We could also simply end up as dead code or even be deleted or perhaps revived on a new server that might be similar or heavenly or hellish. Who knows. Because I don't know what comes next I don't worry about it, I just want to live healthy forever or until I'm sick of here.

    More recently I've been interested in Neopaganism. I thought it would be cool to have a old Slavic belief but the Croat beliefs are kind of too made up at this point for my liking and without more research I'm not sure if any of them are anything but made up and probably not very accurate to what people believe before Christianity.
     
  7. chopeth

    chopeth SS.org Regular

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    I was going to answer science is an approach and method rather than a ultimate truth thing but it was remarked several times after my post. Real Science, the one you could consider structured curiosity is the only valuable (and provisional) answer. The rest (religions) is bullshit.
     
  8. El Caco

    El Caco Djavli te ponesli Contributor

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    As someone who once studied the Bible and religion seriously as I trained to become a preacher I can say is those issues you raised are some of the least of the concerns in the Bible. Try bringing up the contradictions or polytheism in the Old Testament. The funny thing about many is when you bring up these things they see it as a test of their faith and choose to believe even if they find something that is hard to accept. Ultimately they ignore it and I've seen various approaches from saying "smarter men than you or I have been studying the Bible for centuries and if it was an issue they would have mentioned it" to simply asking someone they respect as more inspired for reassurance.

    Here is the problem as I see it with the Abrahamic religions, they all have the same flawed foundation. Out of the 3 if I have to pick a favourite, it is Islam and I think it would be cool if it was real, it certainly makes more sense than the other two and I prefer some of the teachings but it is based on the same flawed foundation.

    Then of course we have the issue of these all being so far removed from the original beliefs with no hope of ever getting back that there is no way the faiths today are genuine even if one of them was real. For starters there is the total bastardisation of what Idolatry is. Today it only concerns the worship of false Gods or Idols but back in the day it was understood that any image of anything in heaven or earth was Idolatry, worship was not a factor. That would make TV's Idolatry and photos. I have actually come across religious people who understand and agree with this, one explanation I have come across that allows photos and regular TV is that it is okay to capture God's creation but not okay to create an image yourself. Sounds like BS to me. But once upon a time the idea of creating a likeness being wrong was widely accepted so in religious excavations dating to those times it is normal to not find any likeness and only find patterns in art and decorative design.

    My biggest problem with religion is the believers. I have met very few people (less than a hands worth) I would describe as Godly, the greatest of those was Mormon which I find pretty bloody humorous. Outside of those I find religious people to be the most horrible people of all, most don't understand the concept of love at all. Many are horribly judgemental and intolerant justify this by claiming God's righteous judgement or the concept that Saints will judge. Others pretty much claim a free pass to anything by saying their faith provides them forgiveness. But it isn't limited to Christianity, you can't even say anything negative about one of the religions without being branded and potentially destroyed, then you have the many people who have done wrong to me or ripped me off. Most recent of those was a Muslim who left town without paying me. A funny thing about him was one night we had a conversation on Islam and he mentioned the Virgins in heaven, I can't for a moment fathom how having that many wives is any kind of heavenly concept. And what makes them virgins? Do you tear their hymen every time? They can pretend they are perpetual virgins but I don't buy it, even if you got 72 that's 72 virgin roots who then become 72 wives, who really wants that many wives?
     
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  9. marcwormjim

    marcwormjim SS.org Regular

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    I think a more interesting topic is "Is anyone in this tonewood community/echo chamber of BKP prescription not given to indulging in religious reasoning or action?" E.g., though generally identifying as an irreligious dandy, I'm aware that my presumptions concerning the toilet I'm typing this from effectively disposing my bloody stools are - nonetheless - fallacious, ritualistic hopes.

    My pedantic non-point is that "particularly religious" can describe any instance of anyone believing what they prefer to be true.
     
  10. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    Some of the ways people word things in this thread kinda baffle me.
    I mean, choosing a world view isn't about just picking one and running with it- it's supposed to be a question of what you think is true. You're not supposed to change world views like you change your shirt because it went out of style.

    Like "I considered being an Atheist" makes no sense to me. Or saying "this religion looks cool, maybe I'll try that one". It's not the title you should be debating, it's whether or not you think that religion is the truth. If the answer to that question is a plain ol' no, then that's not your religion. The statement shouldn't be "I considered this religion" it should be "I considered whether or not these values represent reality".
     
  11. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    I wasn't very clear. I mean that religion tries to answer questions that science can never begin to answer:

    Q. What happens when you die?
    Science: As circulation and nerve functions seize, tissue become swollen with gas, and when the gas escapes the tissues, fluids tend to leak out of cells and organ networks. As the immune system shuts down, the body begins to break down, starting with the eyes and softer tissues and ending with cartilage and bone. We know this from observing and recording people after they died.
    Religion: If you believed in religion, your intangible internal entity separates from your physical body and travels to a place no one alive can know anything about to be with a cosmic being that is all powerful but completely indectable to life on Earth. We know this because it was written down by some crazed person a very long time ago.

    Q. Is there a god?
    Science: What do you mean "god?" Maybe you should ask religion that question- I don't feel comfortable without a firm definition of what you are asking.
    Religion: Yes, but only the one(s) religion says. All other answers are false.

    Q. How can I become better at sports.
    Science: Proper diet and exercise, along with gratuitous amounts of training to hone in the skills involved in that particular activity will prepare you better for a career doing such.
    Religion: Pray to the god of the correct religion and have faith that (s)he will answer.

    Q. How does a hair drier work?
    Science: As electricity flows through an imperfect conductor, energy as electrical potential is lost to energy as heat. By directing the flow of air through the source of that heat, a warm current is created. That warm current has a low partial pressure for water, which causes water in hair and on skin to evaporate much more quickly, and the flow of air carries the water vapours away so that the process continues at a high rate.
    Religion: I dunno, ask science.
    Crazy religion: [​IMG]
     
  12. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    I still disagree though. Religion definitely tries to answer things that are subjective, opinion, etc., regarding things like morality, values, behavior, etc., that don't fit the domain of science, but it absolutely tries to answer things that science already has an answer for, or that does have an answer that's possible to find via science. You've even given examples yourself of questions that both try to answer, and give opposing answers to. It can be justified away if you try hard enough, but there's a lot of overlap in what the two try to accomplish.

    Except religion never says "dunno, ask science", it just says "because God said so". Or sometimes says something that entirely contradicts what science says. There are some people of faith who would allow for that "dunno, maybe science knows" approach, but just as many don't. I can just as easily pick some questions that both try to answer, and that provide conflicting answers:

    How was the world/universe/etc. started?
    Where do humans come from?
    How old is the planet?
    What should be done if someone gets sick?
    What causes people to behave a certain way?

    It would be nice to be able to say that religion stays outside of things that are in the domain of science, but it's just not true. What about cases where people refuse treatment for an illness because "it's part of the plan"? What about people who use spirituality to explain away their psychological issues/hallucinations/etc. instead of getting help? What about people who flat out deny that the world is round, or that it's older than their holy text claims, or that evolution doesn't exist, etc?
     
  13. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    Here's another odd question:

    Why do so few people deny the existence of "souls"? It's just as nebulous/undefined/unverifiable as any other spiritual/religious concept. It seems to me that if you deny religion, deny gods, deny spirituality, then "souls" should just be the next thing on that list of things that don't seem to reflect reality, right?
     
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  14. vilk

    vilk Very Regular

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    I think we can chock that up to ghost stories. For some reason, people just really really want to believe in ghosts. I super don't get that.

    Even on this forum, check the "strange things that happened to you thread" there's this guy who said he's got ghosts because the suction cup fell down in his shower... :lol:
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017
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  15. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    I had an ex who was (probably still is?) really into ghost hunting. And by ghost hunting I mean looking at poorly shot photos and deciding that dust and lens flares are actually spirits. I got dragged out to a ghost hunt once and it was so ridiculous- homemade gadgets that did literally nothing, everything that was aesthetically creepy was "haunted" because of course it was. And they were so condescending about having "a skeptic" in the room, as if I was the one being irrational.
     
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  16. BenjaminW

    BenjaminW SS.org Regular

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    I'll admit. I did drift off to being atheist a few times and I did start listening to guys like Richard Dawkins and The Amazing Atheist on YouTube but when I look back at it now, I do think it was just me being some edgy kid who was mad at the world. Hope that clears things up for you.
     
  17. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    It's easy in this day and age to forget that a great deal of the science that existed prior to the Renaissance was collected by monks and clergy-members who had really nothing better to do at the time when the common people were struggling to not starve every winter.

    I think where we are getting deep into the intricacies of dogmas and superstitions within religion. I know what you are saying, and I'm not saying that you're wrong, but, if you trim the fat off of a religion, you get rid of pretty much all of the examples you mention.

    For all of the Bible's shortcomings in logic, it doesn't say anywhere that the Earth is 5000 years old (that's what some pragmatic people "interpreted"), nor that evolution is false (the theory of evolution did not exist at the time, and therefore there is no mention of it, nor it's pretenses).

    The same goes for science: Science doesn't state a conjecture for how time started, only models of what happened at t=x where x is before now. The big bang theory doesn't give any information at all into what happened before the big bang, for example. What should be done if someone gets sick is another one where science only has "IF ... THEN ... ELSE ..." to say.

    As for "where do humans come from?" Well, clearly science has something to say. Some religions do, as well, and some do not. But again, things can be taken with a grain of salt or not. If the Bible states that humans came from nothing, literally a few days after the Earth was created, and then a single man and a single woman bred to populate the Earth in all of it's diversity, yet their firstborn children ran into other people, clearly it's not simply a matter of archaeology and science to drudge up problems with the story. :lol:

    I don't believe in any of those religions, but to say that religion and science necessarily contradict one another is, in my opinion, a misguided conclusion, since, science is really confined to knowledge about things we can observe and measure in some way, and religion, at its core, is supposed to answer deep philosophical questions that have no observable answers.
     
  18. StevenC

    StevenC SS.org Regular

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    Ah, you're just one of those a la carte existential nihilists. I bask in the meaninglessness of human existence every moment of every day.
     
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  19. TedEH

    TedEH Cromulent

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    I suppose I see it as not necessarily that the two contradict each other in the sense that you've described it, more that religion just sort of contradicts reality, and science is a tool to try to measure reality. It would be one thing to say that faith just amounts to filling in some gaps with our best guesses- which I think is what some people see it as, and likely how a lot of aspects of it started, but in practice that's not really what's happening anymore. Science has closed so many of those gaps, clearly demonstrating that religious interpretations of the world aren't reliable. It's my opinion that we have more than enough evidence to conclude that religion does not reflect reality, there is no God, spirits, ghosts, souls, etc, but yet people still take it as truth without a good reason to believe those things.

    Until we figure out how to observe those answers, or deem the questions meaningless or unanswerable.
     
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  20. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    Not every religion is as crazy as every other, though. I think religious philosophies come about due to people's ponderous observations of reality through the lens devoid of evidence-based criticism, and it catches on through some sort of resonance with other people's similar observations. One the philosophy of a religion is established, it almost always drifts over time as the religion goes through some phases. At it's core, though, the concept of existence of god or lack thereof is a totally unfalsifiable principle, in that there is no way to actively prove nor disprove it, based off of evidence alone, due to the simple nature of an undetectable being being undetectable. The logical arguments are going to have to rely on philosophy or on pure rhetoric.

    Which leads to my favourite atheist philosophical question: "What if there is a god, and he exists, but you will never interact with him in any way during this life or any afterlife that may or may not exist?"
     

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