Al Franken

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Drew, Nov 17, 2017.

  1. KnightBrolaire

    KnightBrolaire 8 string hoarder

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    The photo of franken/tweeden is pretty pathetic as actual evidence of groping (she wouldn't feel shit through that IBA if she had the front plate in), though her testimony obviously holds some merit, especially since franken owned up to it/apologized. Not really trying to defend franken, but I find it interesting how all these people are coming forward years after the events transpired, almost like they're trying to ride the coattails of these scandals in order to get some publicity. I saw a video of drake supposedly calling out a guy who was groping women at his concert and threatening to come into the audience and fight him. The timing is a little coincidental, almost like they are trying to build some goodwill/publicity..:nuts:
     
  2. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    I don't think this is fair, because if you're just some random military personnel and you accuse a celebrity comedian/politician of this sort of thing, it could either be completely swept under the rug or get you in trouble. So from where she was when this happened, I don't think there was much she could really do. On top of that, sensibilities change -- "kissed me during a performance where I said I didn't want to be kissed" sounds to me like the thing that wouldn't get a second notice ten years ago.

    I think if it was me though I would have let it slide for the greater good. No one should be able to kiss you against your will, but generally Franken pushes on a policy agenda that's good for women, and now that effort will be undermined a bit because of this incident. Then again, maybe the greater good is served by having a set of future politicians who are squeaky clean in this regard.

    Yea, maybe.
     
  3. Randy

    Randy Ooh, Degrasse Tyson-son Super Moderator

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    Worth noting, well known conservative hitman Roger Stone tweeted at 1:30am the night before that Franken was going down for being "grabby", so clearly somebody in the conservative orbit knew this was coming.
     
  4. Explorer

    Explorer He seldomly knows...

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    I think Franken did the right thing in asking for an investigation.

    If Republicans take the bait, they both take the chance of not finding anything further against Franken, and raise the pressure to investigate the charges against Moore and Trump which are far more substantial.
     
  5. ElRay

    ElRay Mostly Harmless

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    And that's the difference. Franken has acknowledged the one occasion, gave a heartfelt, real, apology and said "investigate me".

    The GOP names on the list have: Denied, Lied, Justified, Dismissed, Trivialized, Conspiracy-ized, Victim-Blamed and tried to sweep things under the rug for multiple cases each.

    HUGE difference.
     
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  6. HeHasTheJazzHands

    HeHasTheJazzHands greg rulz ok

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    The timing makes sense. With the Weinstein scandal and the rise of the #metoo movement, of course people are gonna come out. I like Franken, but this was pretty damn bad on his part. I'm just happy he's trying his best to make amends. Hell, he's even had staffers come to his defense.

    Just like ElRay said above, you have someone like Roy Moore with multiple child molestation accusation, and he's trying his best to call out EVERYONE against him, burn bridges, throw people under the bus... Basically everything to make himself look as shitty as possible (unless you're crazy.)
     
  7. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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  8. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    This is hugely important and absolutely worth keeping in mind, especially in that the GOP is trying to equivocate stories like Franken's with stories like Moore. Franken behaved inappropriately, but stopped well short of rape, and fully owned up and apologized for his actions. Trump and Moore both followed the same playbook of accusing their multiple victims of being liars and denying everything (aside from some innocent "locker room talk"), and the former has been accused (and has admitted in as many words) to far more aggressive forms of assault, while the latter has been accused (with substantiating evidence like the fact he'd been banned from a mall around the same time for spending too much time chasing underage girls) of child molestation.

    It DOESN'T excuse Franken's actions, and the fact it still happened in the first place is pretty bad. But, at least the Democrats are owning up to it and punishing the transgressors. And, before someone says "But Bill Clinton..." yeah, his legacy is being fiercely debated now amongst the left, as well, as an area where we may have been in the wrong in the past.

    I have zero save for, I think, a couple tweets from Nate Silver to base this on, but the Menz story is supposed to be a lot less credible than the Tweeden one, and she's evidently tripped herself up a number of times in interviews since, casting further doubt onto it. This is very much 2nd and 3rdhand, though, so take this with a giant sized grain of salt - I'm passing along what I've heard from credible sources, but I'm not yet sure if it's something I believe.
     
  9. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    I think, rather than that, it's a matter of the fact that for the last several details accusers have by and large been called liars or slut-shamed, and suddenly post-Weinstein they're being taken seriously. Yes, that may invite other women to come forward (or even fabricate) stories for publicity... But, there are also a LOT of women who now feel that they can safely talk about their experiences.
     
  10. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    The story about the groping in the photo is, what I classify as "he-said-she-said." I think it still may be quite interesting to see how it plays out.

    I mean, GHW Bush was doing marginally worse already than what Franken has been accused of doing.

    Again, I think that, with the level of inappropriate these allegations are, this is really something that should be dealt with between Franken and his accusers, not really by the public, but I'm probably in the minority there either way.
     
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  11. narad

    narad SS.org Regular

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    Something that I find quite troublesome is seeing how the meta-issue plays out. In the past hour two more people were ousted from their jobs due to allegations of "crude sexual advances" or similar (and popped up on my FB wall). If every time someone is accused of something we rely on some form of social-media-mob vigilantism until a person steps down or is fired or otherwise ostracized, we've undermined the criminal justice system insofar as it pertains to someones livelihood, allowing them to remain outside of jail but really not so much else.

    Maybe it is just pervasive and the floodgates are opening in a healthy way and a correction for decades of hushed slaps on the wrists, but really it doesn't seem like grinding this all out on social media is a healthy mechanism. Seems more like a pillory.
     
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  12. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    Well, what this meta-issue seems to be saying, in the grand scheme of things, is that a significant portion of men in the USA don't know what's inappropriate. Just my opinion, maybe, but when you live in a society where men are rewarded, socially, for being dicks, you should expect men to be dicks. It doesn't make it okay - it makes it less okay, overall, but you see when one person is bad, the problem belongs to that person, but when a thousand people are bad, the problem is owned by society. It'll be a knee-jerk type of reaction to propose legislation, once this sinks in, but it's not the government's job to be society. Society should regulate its people and the government regulates society, then if the people regulate the government, you have a triangle of non-dominating checks and balances.

    In cases of assault, let the legal system decide, but whilst Franken's alleged behaviour is inappropriate, I do not believe it constitutes assault. American culture needs to have an open conversation about this, though, to get to the root of the bigger issue.
     
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  13. wankerness

    wankerness SS.org Regular

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    I think what he did was bad, but what enrages me is that it looks like he may actually step down (thanks to the left's EXTREME problem with punishment fitting the crime), while Roy Moore did vastly more horrible stuff and is likely going to get elected and not end up facing any consequences. Touching a butt vs trying to bed tons of teenagers as a 30+ year old? Shut up already. This guy is working to make your life better, even if he did something terrible, and kicking him out will make your life worse.

    He should step down at the end of his term and they should replace him with a woman, IMO.

    And they're probably going to demand the resignation of more left-wing politicians, some of whom may be in states where the governor is a republican, which will actively work against their own political goals. I really hate the short-sightedness of the Twitter outrage brigade. I really wish that mouthpiece was removed, for a whole host of reasons. Nothing good has ever happened on Twitter (well, besides things like Dril tweets).
     
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  14. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    Your overall point is good, but I just felt that I had to point out this specific line of thinking as exactly what the Roy Moore supporters are using to defend him.
     
  15. wankerness

    wankerness SS.org Regular

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    I draw the line at committing/attempting to commit crimes, I guess.
     
  16. bostjan

    bostjan MicroMetal Contributor

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    Me too. It doesn't look like Franken committed a crime. During this wave of allegations of forcible rape, coerced rape, child molestation and (this might get me into trouble) coerced sexual harassment against a ton of people in Washington and Hollywood, we seem to have gotten these two stories that have been a lot more in the spotlight than they really seem to deserve, in comparison with so many others, and I'm referring to Franken and GHW Bush. While I certainly do not want to belittle how absolutely inappropriate it is for a man to grab a stranger's "not-as-private-but-still-private" areas, Without knowing a little more clearly about the circumstances, I could see how things could get blown out of proportion, and I also don't see how a first offense would necessarily be a crime. Harassment, to me, is something unwanted, and also something where you told a person to stop and that person continued anyway, deliberately. Assault, to me, is harming someone intentionally. Inappropriate contact with a person's buttocks or chest, whilst bad and inappropriate and all that jazz, is not and should not be a crime.

    When I was a teenager, I had women in their 40's and 50's grabbing my butt on several occasions, without provocation on my part. I can see how a man in his 50's doing the same to a woman in her 20's or whatever would be totally different, but if you want to argue equality to the nth degree, then either both should be illegal or neither should be illegal. If you need to set certain norms, like "This is okay for women to do, and this is not okay for men to do, and that's okay for women to do, but that's not okay for men to do...," then we'll need some strict sort of social code to replace the antiquated "old boys' club" norms leftover from the 1960's that some men seem to still think is okay.

    I mean, what do you, personally, think is the line to not cross?

    For me, personally, I think simply not touching anyone at all unless absolutely necessary or unless you know them really well is a pretty good baseline, but I'll be the first to admit that the part about "you know them very well" is frustratingly difficult to define clearly. In the Tweeden case, though, I don't know - there might be an angle to that to address how comfortable Franken thought he was with Tweeden, but in the other woman's case, Franken doesn't know her at all...but then there's also the unrelated-to-Franken angle of mistaken identity.

    Generally, it's easy to say "just don't ever touch people," but honestly, between horsing around and that whole pesky part of life that humans need to have sex with each other in order to carry on the species, there is no fraking way to expect that sort of hard line in the sand to ever work universally.
     
  17. KnightBrolaire

    KnightBrolaire 8 string hoarder

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  18. Randy

    Randy Ooh, Degrasse Tyson-son Super Moderator

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    Not for nothing but something weird about all of his accusations involving taking pics with women. Like he only grabs tits and asses when someone's snapping a photo.
     
  19. bpprox22

    bpprox22 String Breaker

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    [​IMG]

    Hovering should be unacceptable across the board then.

    However its not.

    Its not sexual assault if I'm not offended but it is sexual assault if I am.
     
  20. Drew

    Drew Forum MVP

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    Well, it took him longer than it should have, but he stepped down a few moments ago. Sorry to see him go but it was unquestionably the right move.
     

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