[FlyingBanana]

Originally Posted by Demoniac

Well, if he'd stop acting as if everyone who is disagreeing with him is a heathen witch, and gave some respect to the people who asked him to stop posting in the way he was (talking down to the people who dont believe the same thing as him) then i wouldnt have been pissed off.

Im out.

Someone stuck up for me!??

That's awesome!

Demoniac...be upset all you want. I can speak my opinion as much as you can speak yours. Sounds like you need tougher skin, and last I checked, we were all discussing the pros and cons of religion....most of us.

[Demoniac]

No, see thats just the thing. You werent 'just speaking your opinion', you were 'speaking yuor opinion while hinting at the eternal damnation that awaits us non-believers due to our lack of faith in an attempt to convert us"

[Thrashmanzac]

Originally Posted by Thrashmanzac

hopefully when i die it will be just like the end credits of a really awesome movie, where the cast of my life scrolls down, then if there are no funny bloopers to watch i will turn the credits off and that will be it

i got neg rep for this
but yeah i dont think too much into death, because i really dont know. i assume that i will just cease existing in a mental sense and that my physical self will promptly return to dust ( i plan to be cremated) becasue to me that seems the most logical of solutions, however it is not the most appealing. some people want logical, some want someing a bit more comforting, imo that is the role religion plays in this debate

[FlyingBanana]

Originally Posted by Demoniac

No, see thats just the thing. You werent 'just speaking your opinion', you were 'speaking yuor opinion while hinting at the eternal damnation that awaits us non-believers due to our lack of faith in an attempt to convert us"

You are also entitled to think what you want to think. That's the plus side of living in a relatively free society still.

Remember that no man can judge another man to his salvation. Bible says that. I never told you that you were going to hell.

Please stop now....my ribs are hurting so much from laughing soo hard.

[Demoniac]

Originally Posted by FlyingBanana

Here's another approach to the claim that God does not exist.

Let's say that He doesn't exist. This would mean that all of the things around us came into being by random chance or by natural cause. Many people make this statement. For example, if you roll a pair of dice, you may get a pair of sixes. That is one thing, but what are the odds of rolling a pair of blank dice and spots suddenly appearing?

I remember reading that around a hundred and fifty years ago or so, Pasteur tried to prove that life cannot be created from non-life. Science today has proven this beyond all doubt. So...where has human, animal and plant life come from?

Also, natural causes are not a plausible explanation for the vast amounts of precise information contained in human DNA. Someone who denies God's existence is left with the conclusion that all life came about by accident, for no reason and it was all just a stroke of luck that the atoms collided the way they did and all of a sudden here we are. However, we have already learned from Pasteur and the scientists of today that this simply isn't possible.

One thing I'd like to ask is this...if God does not exist, why does He go to such lengths to make Himself known to man?

Why is it that people who absolutely and resolutely deny God's existence would spend so much time, attention, and energy attempting to refute something that they don't believe even exists?! What causes people to do that?

We dont believe he exists. We dont believe he goes to lengths to make himself known because we dont believe a nonexistant deity can do that.

Originally Posted by FlyingBanana

Jeff, why do you continue to berate me over my beliefs? I haven't once condemned you nor made fun of you. All that your posts have done is show that you categorically deny God's existence. (over and over)

I'll sit back for now and let you take over center stage, because you aren't allowing any kind of constructive discussion to take place.

Edit. Interestingly, I am not trying to prove anything, but only share with you God's love and yet here you are trying to disprove Him. It seems that you are the one with doubt. Why do people try so diligently to disprove a God of love let alone One who sent a version of Himself as Christ....who healed the sick, raised the dead and created food from nothing...to prove to the people of the world that God does in fact exist? Yet even without all of the historical accounts in the bible, God's miracle of life is all around us.

God tells us this in John 13. "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."

Originally Posted by FlyingBanana

Sad. You feel threatened by a God that loves you, and you are upset by me saying it...and dare I say it, you are torn up inside by your hatred.

By the way, your life doesn't sound so great. If it were, you wouldn't be posting messages about how much hatred you have inside. You'd be living your great life. You might re-think what it is you actually hate. You might be surprised at the real answer if you took the time to be honest with yourself.

Take care buddy.

I dont feel threatened, i feel annoyed that you would apply a set of teachings i dont believe in to me.

Originally Posted by FlyingBanana

An even more sad thing is that most of you feel threatened by little old me telling you that God wants you and loves you. That is just crazy.

Flame on...I don't really care.

Again, not threatened, annoyed. God might want me, i dont want 'him'.

Originally Posted by FlyingBanana

Don't worry, there's still some daylight left. Bwahhaahaa

\

Threat covered by joke.

Originally Posted by FlyingBanana

Blasphemy at its finest.....you guys are a real piece of work....no threats....quit getting all defensive.

Again, applying a religious set of beliefs to a non-religious set of people. And from what i can tell, you are the one getting defensive.

Originally Posted by FlyingBanana

Well, as a person with Christian beliefs, I cannot physically prove my faith and belief in a Spiritual deity for the same reason that you might not be able to prove your love for someone.

All I can do is state what I believe and how that affects my life. I was aware that many would turn on me like a pack of wolves. That's cool though. I'm not complaining.

And I think that the fact that God's existence cannot be proven physically is part of the point. It takes something special in our hearts to believe in something that isn't here that we can physically see and touch and smell.

I also don't really want to risk casting my pearls to the swine as the bible says, but throughout my life, I have often asked myself the question..."Why am I here."

This has always been a big question of mine.

Anyway, when I was 1, my entire carseat (me included) fell out of my mom's car and onto the busy street she was driving on. I fell out of the carseat and ended up on pavement. Some guy was impatiently homking at my mom to get out of the way so he decides to drive around her and over me. So here I was with a tire track over my chest and in the hospital destined to be a vegetable for the rest of my life. So, my parents called our preacher who came to the hospital and prayed over me...not for last rights, but asking God for a complete healing for me.

Remember that I was non responsive and had a couple of tubes in me and all of that, but I immediately became aware of my surroundings and of my parents and using my mom and dad's description, I literally lept from the bed into my mom's arms. The whole room was astounded and the doctor was called to the room. He checked me out and they ran tests which proved that I had no broken bones, no head injury and it looked like I'd be fine.

They called in more doctors who all said the same thing. They said it was a miracle...literally.

So, my life has been filled with these kinds of things. I fell 30 feet out of a tree and my head missed the sidewalk by a foot. I was in an accident later in life and my car was bent in half frontways and sideways. In that accident, the driver ran a stop sign, hit me going 45 mph into the driver door. I walked away with a ractured left small toe. I was unconscious for 20 minutes, but ended up being completely fine and didn't stay in the hospital, because they couldn't find anything wrong with me.

There are a few other stories to tell, but I'll save them for another occasion.

So basically, while I cannot prove the existence of God physically to you, I can tell you how He has impacted my life and that He does exist. That's all I can say about that really.

I know He exists and without Him I would be nothing. Quite simply.

I had a change in my life spiritually, when I was in my early 20's before I got married, (37 now) and this caused me to grow up and become more like a man instead of the 18 year old living in a 25 year old's body.

And I don't ask why I am here so much anymore now that I am married with two children and a full life.

That's part of my story.

This, is the only fully reasonable post you have made. I can fully understand why you have religion as a part of your life, and believe what you do. Which is fine. Stop telling me that im crazy for not believing.

Originally Posted by FlyingBanana

That's just your way of keeping the door open to the mere possibility that God exists.

Baby steps....baby steps.

It's all good.

Again, goading and prodding at people for not believing, and pushing the one person who hinted that they may have some form of spiritual belief you are now pushing eagerly towards the bible.

Originally Posted by FlyingBanana

You are also entitled to think what you want to think. That's the plus side of living in a relatively free society still.

Remember that no man can judge another man to his salvation. Bible says that. I never told you that you were going to hell.

Please stop now....my ribs are hurting so much from laughing soo hard.

There are so many condescending remarks in the above posts its not funny. Every second line is about how everyone would 'benefit from letting god into their lives' and how we are wrong for 'trying to disprove' god or religion. Speaking personally, i dont try and disprove it. Rather, i take swipes at it. Maybe because i want to believe it deep down, because, like has already been said, death is a scary thing, but its just so utterly ridiculous (to me) that its just easier to have a bit of fun with it. Unfortunately, yeah, i get a bit carried away and come off as being more than aggressive.

You on teh other hand cannot possibly understand why or how anyone could possibly not believe in god, or follow your religion, and instead of accepting it, have thrown in hints and subtle threats to your posts to make us 'believe' in the being that it is impossible to prove exists.

EDIT: Just to set the record straight also, i am not angry at your faith, i am not trying to put your beliefs down, and i am not trying to say that your beliefs are worthless. I am annoyed with you and the way you have gone about communicating those beliefs.

[JBroll]

Originally Posted by Demoniac

EDIT: Just to set the record straight also, i am not angry at your faith, i am not trying to put your beliefs down, and i am not trying to say that your beliefs are worthless. I am annoyed with you and the way you have gone about communicating those beliefs.

The point, as direct as can be. Misinterpret this if you dare!

Jeff

[Naren]

Originally Posted by FlyingBanana

Isn't that what I just said?

I have some general idea how you guys feel. I think it's a really big deal how one was raised.

I was never driven crazy by a relgious nut dad, but I did belong to a church for 25 years, got married in that we had to leave. While the previous preacher was alive, everything was grand. He was the glue that held everything together. He preached Christ and practiced what he preached.

I won't get into the details, but when he passed away, the assistant took over and it was downhill from there. That aside however, my family, my wife and I still held onto our faith though we still went and supported things. We did finally have to leave, because it was turning into a...shall we say spiritually dead group of people.

We still have not joined another church, however we do attend various churches we get invited to. I will say that even though I don't belong to a church, my faith has never been stronger, because the Spirit of God does not reside inside of a building and its four walls. It is in each of us. (if we allow)

So anyway, what was my point...oh yes.

Despite whatever negative connotations you may have about Christianity, religion and faith in God, they may have their roots in the stupidity of others, maybe in how religion was served to you, or possibly in how something bad happened and you wondered how it could be if in fact God was all powerful and all loving.

All I can say is this. Things do happen for a reason. If something bad happened to you, try and look past it rather than give up religion entirely. Religion doesn't need to be a church and singing hymns or passing the money jar around etc...It is about your relationship with the Creator.

No. As I already mentioned, I grew up in a very very strong Christian family and went to church every week and went to a Christian junior high and high school. But I am an atheist. Was that because Christians were really mean to me or tyrants? No. They were all very very nice. Many of my best friends were Christians. I love my mom and my step-dad. One of my close friends when I was a teenager was a pastor at a church. He was an amazing person.

Then why am I an atheist? Them being nice or great people does not make me believe that there is a God when I have no reason to believe there is a God from evidence in the real world. I don't need proof. I need "reasons." And I have never had any. I was born from day 1 as a very logical thinking person. Someone I met once said "Your main hindrance to your faith is that you think too logically." And I could not see how that is a bad thing. How is logic bad?

I'm sure a lot of the people who are very bitter at Christianity may have grown up in horrible homes or with oppressive Christian parents, but I'm an athiest and I grew up in a great family and never had any "horrible impressions" of Christians as far as how nice or not nice they are.

[forelander]

Originally Posted by Psyclapse

I don't think that example follows suit with what we're discussing though. 2+2=4 is a fact, a testable, checkable, certifiable fact. We're dealing with spirituality, in which there are no facts except the ones that people perceive to be true. To believe 2+2 equals anything other than 4 would either be a sign of a mental handicap or insanity.

The argument being made is in regards to where one draws the line between such 'fact' and something that qualifies enough uncertainty to warrant belief in some external force / influence.

Take this other example. 1 + 1 = 10. Accept for now that this is 'fact.' Gasp everyone says, this is truth but I don't understand, therefore it is the work of God. This is the case we had a few pages back. Then Jongpil joined the fray and said "fuck that, it's not God, there are more reasonable explanations in science that aren't being properly explored before jumping to conclusions. Examine all the available evidence first." The point being, for JP (and many of us), that line I mentioned goes a lot further than 2+2=4. Making any conclusion on anything without proper backing, evidence or justification very much crosses that line.

As for those interested that hadn't figured it out yet, 1 + 1 = 10 is not the work of God and is completely true. You just have to be in a binary number system. It's a silly example, but just shows something that is fact that you don't understand need not be the work of God.

[FlyingBanana]

Originally Posted by Demoniac

EDIT: Just to set the record straight also, i am not angry at your faith, i am not trying to put your beliefs down, and i am not trying to say that your beliefs are worthless. I am annoyed with you and the way you have gone about communicating those beliefs.

Originally Posted by JBroll

The point, as direct as can be. Misinterpret this if you dare!

Jeff

Misinterpret it?

Just about all of his posts are negative, demeaning or demoralizing. He is being pushy, forthright, bold and without a kind word. I could go on, but that wouldn't be Christian like.

Show me where I judged anyone to their salvation. Couldn't find it?

Now show me where I am being persecuted for my beliefs and I'll show you just about every post in this thread.

Please don't try to get me angry...you wouldn't like me when I'm angry. haha Just kidding. That was a line from Incredible Hulk.

[JBroll]

No, the whole time you completely missed the line between stating your beliefs and trying to sell them. You also haven't been persecuted for your beliefs nearly as much as you think you have - what you're being 'persecuted' (more accurately, criticized) for is the completely clueless used-car-salesman tone a lot of your posts put across. Like I and others have been said, you have every right to believe whatever you want to believe and most of us will defend that right - one more time, since you seem to have missed the last half-dozen times this has been stated or implied, the objection is not to your beliefs but to your inability to state them without trying to convert people.

Jeff

[Demoniac]

You arent being persecuted for your beliefs.

How many times do people have to say this to you??

People are getting annoyed because of the way you conduct yourself. NOT because of your beliefs. Its the way you talk towards other members, whether you realise or not (im guessing not) you act like a condescending little kid who doesnt understand we are not interested.

Originally Posted by FlyingBanana

I'd like to make an observation if I may.....

I would guess it is easier to follow a path different from belief in Christ, if only because the Devil is all about instant gratification, whereas belief in Christ is about the end result...which is salvation through faith, which is a tough pill to swallow for many because it isn't something you can see and touch.

The majority of the people in this world are just like that. They are full of the desire for instant gratification, trampling over everyone in rush to get what's theirs....not unlike those people at the Wal Mart that killed that poor employee.

No one thinks of the consequences of there actions either.

I say slow down and consider other options in life. I'm pretty sure that most of you have at one time or other have thought about God or some other "higher power" that is ultimately in control of things.

Why take a chance with what might come after you die? Wouldn't it be better to embrace a healthy, Christian lifestyle or at least give some thought to it then to reach the end not knowing what could have been?

There. Judging us to our salvation. Why? Because apparently we are all heathens who are all about the instant gratimifacation that the devil offers us even though we DONT BELIEVE IN THE DEVIL.That post contains everything that is annoying me. Why take the chance? Well, clearly we want to. Wouldnt it be better to etc. etc. something about christ? No. Clearly we arent interested. If we were, we'd have gone to church, and inducted ourselves into the christian faith.

Originally Posted by Demoniac

I believe there is nothing. But id like to. To bbe honest, it actually scares me more than anything i can think of. And not just a 'oh thats scary' kind of fear, its that kind that stays in your heart and brings you down so far its horrible.

The thought of becoming nothing, of being nothing, and of just passing scares the absolute fucking shit out of me. And theres nothing i can do about it.

Maybe its a sign that im not as happy as i should be in life at the moment, maybe not, i dont know. But i feel terrified.

What do you beleive... 12-17-2008 03:01 PM here...have some neg rep, you deserve it

Wow, to the S.O.B who negged me for what is quite possibly the only truly meaningful comment i have made, real fucking mature.

[FlyingBanana]

Originally Posted by Demoniac

You arent being persecuted for your beliefs.

How many times do people have to say this to you??

People are getting annoyed because of the way you conduct yourself. NOT because of your beliefs. Its the way you talk towards other members, whether you realise or not (im guessing not) you act like a condescending little kid who doesnt understand we are not interested.




There. Judging us to our salvation. Why? Because apparently we are all heathens who are all about the instant gratimifacation that the devil offers us even though we DONT BELIEVE IN THE DEVIL.That post contains everything that is annoying me. Why take the chance? Well, clearly we want to. Wouldnt it be better to etc. etc. something about christ? No. Clearly we arent interested. If we were, we'd have gone to church, and inducted ourselves into the christian faith.

Oh please. Why are you so sensitive?

I am not condescending. Just sharing my thoughts on what I believe in. If that's so bad...my gosh.

Again I ask, show me where I have judged or condemned you.

We're just trading jabs now. Not nice.

Im out.

[JBroll]

He's not sensitive. You're unable to perceive the way you've come across. It's as simple as that - he has some pretty thick skin, actually, but you might as well have locked him up in a vault with you and made the world's most annoying sound for 24 hours straight.

Jeff

[Demoniac]

Originally Posted by FlyingBanana

I'd like to make an observation if I may.....

I would guess it is easier to follow a path different from belief in Christ, if only because the Devil is all about instant gratification, whereas belief in Christ is about the end result...which is salvation through faith, which is a tough pill to swallow for many because it isn't something you can see and touch.

The majority of the people in this world are just like that. They are full of the desire for instant gratification, trampling over everyone in rush to get what's theirs....not unlike those people at the Wal Mart that killed that poor employee.

No one thinks of the consequences of there actions either.

I say slow down and consider other options in life. I'm pretty sure that most of you have at one time or other have thought about God or some other "higher power" that is ultimately in control of things.

Why take a chance with what might come after you die? Wouldn't it be better to embrace a healthy, Christian lifestyle or at least give some thought to it then to reach the end not knowing what could have been?

Again. Right there. You are condemning me, and everyone not of the Christian persuasion to a 'hell' we dont believe exists. If you are soooo open minded and dont actually believe it, and acccept that all of our views are different, then why even post that?? Of course we dont have the same views, and this post is putting everyone other than you in hell, because we all apparently wanted "instant gratification.

[FlyingBanana]

Originally Posted by Demoniac

Again. Right there. You are condemning me, and everyone not of the Christian persuasion to a 'hell' we dont believe exists. If you are soooo open minded and dont actually believe it, and acccept that all of our views are different, then why even post that?? Of course we dont have the same views, and this post is putting everyone other than you in hell, because we all apparently wanted "instant gratification.

So then, do you consider yourself in the "majority of the world?"

Also, just because you don't believe in it does not mean it doesn't exist.
Say that 5 times real fast.

That kind of thinking is rubbish. It's like saying "Did the tree make a sound if I wasn't there to hear it?"

Can I choose "Because the bible says..." for 200 dollars please Alex?

Again, I never said you are doomed. You claim I did, but can't yet pull out the post. I'm still waiting.

Have a good evening gentlemen.

[Demoniac]

Im not saying it 'doesnt exist' just that i dont believe it. Nor am i saying you are a horrible person for believing it, nor am i saying that you are 'wrong' for believing it. I have pulled out the post twice now.

Why take a chance with what might come after you die? Wouldn't it be better to embrace a healthy, Christian lifestyle or at least give some thought to it then to reach the end not knowing what could have been?

Thats saying "if you dont follow christ and his gospels to fulfill the Christian ideal of a good life, you are doomed to an eternity of pain and torment in a hell you dont believe in!!"

And no, i do not consider myself to be indicative of 'the majority of the world', the majority are Christian of one form or another. Funnily enough though, the greatest thinkers and scientists generally arent...

[petereanima]

wow, so i just got neg-reped for THIS:

Originally Posted by petereanima

personally, i dont think about it very often - i used to when i was younger, but sometime back then came the point when i thought "why should i think about it? i will know it early enough."

but on the other hand - i catched myself very often to think about it when i worked for the ambulance, talking to regular patients with real aweful lifehistory...like for example a girl, 1 or 2 years younger than me - having this extremely rare skin-disease since birth and its getting worse and worse...if you touch her skin, it breaks, and it will never heal, you can just imagine how disfigured she got form time to time...she was fighting that since forever, and meanwhile it got so worse that they had to take off one leg and one hand...and if thats not enough - she then got cancer too...

you know, i then found myslef thinking about "this girl is at my age, and her whole life she did nothing but fighting against this disease, but no matter what she will do - the disease will win at the end. i hope that there is an afterlife and that justice happens to her then."

"so depressing, cheer up doofus"

@whoever that was:
? what the fuck, dude, can you explain that to me? oh, i'm very sorry that reading this is "depressing" for you, welcome to the real life. its not the happy peacefull apple-pie thing you think it is, "doofus".

[Demoniac]

Well my apologies for unleashing this storm of neg-rep on people And to all the people that were discussing afterlife possibilities (Petereanima, Zepp88, Tonalarchitect, Psyclapse, Hairychris, Jbroll, Stealthtastic, Naren, Twiztedchild, JJ Rodriguez, Stitch, etc..), you have my apologies for dragging this discussion down the shitter.

[JJ Rodriguez]

Originally Posted by FlyingBanana

Also, just because you don't believe in it does not mean it doesn't exist.

The inverse of that is also true though, just because you believe it doesn't mean it exists.

When we're kids, we believe Santa Clause is real. I imagine when we're really young there isn't a doubt in our minds he exists. Doesn't make it so I imagine a couple of the people in this thread find the Christian god to be like that, since they once believed, then found their own reasons for not.

[twiztedchild]

Originally Posted by Demoniac

Well my apologies for unleashing this storm of neg-rep on people And to all the people that were discussing afterlife possibilities (Petereanima, Zepp88, Tonalarchitect, Psyclapse, Hairychris, Jbroll, Stealthtastic, Naren, Twiztedchild, JJ Rodriguez, Stitch, etc..), you have my apologies for dragging this discussion down the shitter.

No problem from me man

[FlyingBanana]

Though they remain the same, I apologize again to you guys if you have been offended by my opinions.

On a side note:
I just think the whole rep system sucks, because I haven't said one bad word to any of you. I shouldn't have received neg rep for being able to think for myself and believe in God of all things. If I had known you guys were like that, I might not have gotten involved in the discussion.

And you should be ashamed for the pics you guys left when you rep'd me, considering my beliefs.

I'll just not post anymore and lurk from time to time instead, because after all, there is a lot of good info on here about guitars and amps.

Take care.

[Stitch]

You're all acting like a bunch of twelve year olds. Piss off to harmony central with all of this.

FlyingBanana; they way you've behaved in this thread has been that of a jerk but I've just ignored what you've come out with. We can agree to disagree. Some of the stuff in your rep history is hardly appropriate and with any luck the mods (ha) will discipline them. This doesn't mean go away and lurk, although I would suggest just not entering these discussions again.

While there has been attempts at some decent conversation in the course of this thread religion is never a safe topic and at the end I think there were a few cases of people sticking their fingers in their ears and going 'nah nah naaaaaaaaa I can't hear you!'

, I hope.

[twiztedchild]

Originally Posted by Stitch

You're all acting like a bunch of twelve year olds. Piss off to harmony central with all of this.

While there has been attempts at some decent conversation in the course of this thread religion is never a safe topic and at the end I think there were a few cases of people sticking their fingers in their ears and going 'nah nah naaaaaaaaa I can't hear you!'

, I hope.

I said this like ten pages ago. But I agree with you Stitch.

[Demoniac]

Honestly im surprised at how long this thread ended up... i mean seriously, 45 pages

[twiztedchild]

Originally Posted by Demoniac

Honestly im surprised at how long this thread ended up... i mean seriously, 45 pages

i know