Evolution by natural selection.

[IamOthello]

Gallup, one of the most renowned polling companies did a national poll in 2004 that showed : 13% of the people surveyed believes evolution to be true.

The remainder of the people believe either (45%) God created everything in its existence and the world is less then 10,000 years old or, (38%) believe evolution to be GUIDED by God.

Is there anyone here that does not buy into the beautiful idea of the genius Charles Darwin?

If you do not believe in Evolution, would you care to tell me why? Because I honestly can't figure out where there could be any doubt, after knowing the facts, if evolution is true or not.

[BigPhi84]

I will admit that I fall into the 38%. I don't like talking about sex, religion, or politics to people though, as I feel that those beliefs and choices are very personal and are also greatly influenced by your life experiences. I'm not going to try to convince you to believe the way as I do... that would be proselytizing and I'm not here to do that. I love this place because the threads are interesting but more importantly, most of the people here are cool, funny, and open-minded.


Besides, does it really matter what other people think when it comes to this? I'm sure there are buttloads of other widely held beliefs that we could scoff at, such as "Walmart is the best place to shop at and get great deals", even though we all know that Walmart is the devil. LOL. Or, Subway's a great place to "Eat Fresh", even though everything comes pre-cut in bags. As long as you are concrete in what you believe, the views held by other people shouldn't matter. Anyways, I feel like I've talked too much, so I'll shut up now.

Keep on rockin', dude,
Phi ^_^

[JBroll]

Science has precisely fuck-all to do with personal experience - as it's said, the plural of 'anecdote' is not data - and is not a matter of opinion. This is a result of inadequate education or brainwashing, plain and simple.

Jeff

[D-EJ915]

lol, well from the wording of your post I can tell the intention of this

[envenomedcky]

While I'm definitely not trying to jump into any sort of religious debate, based on tons of evidence, evolution is something that is pretty much fact. I can't understand people who think the world is less than 10,000 years old. The 38% I can understand to an extent, because even though you have religious beliefs, you don't let that overshadow evidence that suggests the world has been around for billions of years, and that its inhabitants didn't just come into existence. Evolution definitely does not fit in with christian beliefs though. Because if man was created in god's image, we could not have evolved.

Again, I'm not trying to have any sort of religious "debate". But there's never anything wrong with a friendly discussion

[silentrage]

If people were required to actually LIVE by what they believe in then I'm sure they'd believe in evolution in a hurry. For instance, you should be denied the swineflu vaccine if you don't believe in evolution, because that's what it is, and since it doesn't exist, you won't get treated for it. Jehobo's witnesses should not be allowed blood tranfusion in case of emergengies, because they believe it taints their immortal souls.
Etc etc etc.

[Setnakt]

Originally Posted by IamOthello

If you do not believe in Evolution, would you care to tell me why? Because I honestly can't figure out where there could be any doubt, after knowing the facts, if evolution is true or not.

There's yer problem.

This is about an Ignorant Design vs Evolution case in court.


This one starts 2 minutes in unless you want to see their credentials.

[MF_Kitten]

gah, i´m getting so tired from this whole damn thing. i wish i could just make it all go away.

yeah, i´m an atheist, on the side of science, believe in evolution, all that.

i´m too tired to even care about explaining anything right now, but i will add that my religious fiancé believes that evolution is happening and all that, but she doesn´t believe our ancestors were "apes" so to speak. she believes that we were created as humans by god, but she has no objection against the idea that we weren´t the modern human back then, but a bit more primitive. in other words, she believes that we were created as more primitive erect humans, and changed over time to become what we are now. it´s close enough for me, considering she´s a christian, and christians usually just oppose the whole damn thing out of principle, just because, without even giving a shit. i´m proud of her for even comparing the whole thing and thinking about it to form an opinion about it (which she does about every issue, actually), as it really means she doesn´t just follow the heard and hate what the other christians are hating.

[IamOthello]

Originally Posted by BigPhi84

Besides, does it really matter what other people think when it comes to this? I'm sure there are buttloads of other widely held beliefs that we could scoff at, such as "Walmart is the best place to shop at and get great deals",

Phi ^_^

I don't want to scoff at your views Phi. I just want to try and figure out why you could deny something with such an immense amount of evidence that is continually growing.

:]

Originally Posted by MF_Kitten

i´m too tired to even care about explaining anything right now, but i will add that my religious fiancé believes that evolution is happening and all that, but she doesn´t believe our ancestors were "apes" so to speak.

Kitten no scientist ever said we came from apes... We came from common ancestors around 5 million years or so.

and also, I am not trying to spark religious debates. I'm simply asking WHY does not someone believe in Evolution. Because once you actually learn almost all the evidence, you learn that it is widely accepted as scientific fact.

Originally Posted by D-EJ915

lol, well from the wording of your post I can tell the intention of this

And as I stated above, I am not trying to spark a religious debate. I just can't figure out why there is so much evidence people continue to keep themselves blind from.

[hairychris]

FWIW, an entertaining read is the judgment from the Dover trial:

http://www.pamd.uscourts.gov/kitzmil...miller_342.pdf

Yes, it's a legal judgment, but the smack that is laid is absolute genius. The judge (Republican, conservative, etc) was, ermmmm, not impressed by the IDers arguments or the general bullshit from their side.

Edit: Oh yeah, and evolution is a fact. I can't remember who it was who said "You're entitled to your own beliefs, but not to your own facts" but they're dead on.

[SD83]

Originally Posted by IamOthello

We came from common ancestors around 5 million years or so.

Which is proven everyday by the way we act...
I do "believe" in evolution based on natural selection and all that and consider it a fact. I might be wrong (look at how many things people considered "facts" in the past), but until someone proves it, I will continue to think that way. If one tells me the world was created about 10.000 years ago... that would mean he believes that all the science stuff about the age of bones and stones etc. is complete bullshit...
I also believe that we created a world we are totally not made for (by evolution... or god... or and evolution guided by god), but that is a totally different topic

[Nick]

Originally Posted by JBroll

Science has precisely fuck-all to do with personal experience - as it's said, the plural of 'anecdote' is not data - and is not a matter of opinion. This is a result of inadequate education or brainwashing, plain and simple.

Jeff

its not like you to hold back on this topic, go on, tell him what you really think.

[MF_Kitten]

Originally Posted by IamOthello

Kitten no scientist ever said we came from apes... We came from common ancestors around 5 million years or so.

my point exactly, hence the "so to speak" part. i´m tired of trying to explain that point to people who are against evolution.

also, what the hell is up with people saying "it´s just a theory"?!

GRAVITY IS "JUST" A THEORY TOO!

when you write the "wallbash" emoticon, it´s easy to mistakenly write "ballwash" if you´re tired. heheh.

[BigPhi84]

Originally Posted by MF_Kitten

i´m too tired to even care about explaining anything right now, but i will add that my religious fiancé believes that evolution is happening and all that, but she doesn´t believe our ancestors were "apes" so to speak. she believes that we were created as humans by god, but she has no objection against the idea that we weren´t the modern human back then, but a bit more primitive. in other words, she believes that we were created as more primitive erect humans, and changed over time to become what we are now. it´s close enough for me, considering she´s a christian, and christians usually just oppose the whole damn thing out of principle, just because, without even giving a shit. i´m proud of her for even comparing the whole thing and thinking about it to form an opinion about it (which she does about every issue, actually), as it really means she doesn´t just follow the heard and hate what the other christians are hating.

I'm pretty much like her. I am a Christian, but I can't deny what science has "brought to the table". I believe in microevolution, but I have a hard time wrapping my head around macroevolution. (I hope those are the right terms.) (EDIT: I found out that those are the wrong terms.)

Originally Posted by JBroll

Science has precisely fuck-all to do with personal experience - as it's said, the plural of 'anecdote' is not data - and is not a matter of opinion. This is a result of inadequate education or brainwashing, plain and simple.

Jeff

Geez, please be more condescending next time. I never said that science has anything to do with personal experience. What I was getting at was, lets see, if you were a Chinese farmer in some isolated rural area, would you naturally believe in evolution? My line of thinking is that you believe in evolution because someone presented the idea and facts to you (it could have been in biology class like it was for me) and you made a decision to believe it, even if it was just like, "Holy shit, that makes sense".

For any person that had a set of religious beliefs before they had the scenario above, there is some conflict as they try to reconcile both things (that is, if they choose to accept evolution at all). Their personal beliefs and experience influence this choice.

BREAK...

EDIT: This thread has made me google some sites and read up on evolution. There has been a lot of ground-breaking evidence on both sides since I first heard about evolution in high school, so I will continue to read up before I discuss any further (in ignorance) on this thread. Does anyone know of credible websites for me to read up on? I'm currently reading on Evolution News & Views, but I don't know if they are swayed in one direction or another (I'm thinking it's ID, but I'm not sure yet). I don't want to just read on the "FOX News version of Evolution" if you catch my drift. LOL.

Originally Posted by MF_Kitten

when you write the "wallbash" emoticon, it´s easy to mistakenly write "ballwash" if you´re tired. heheh.

Maybe your brain is trying to tell you something.

[Samer]

Originally Posted by JBroll

Science has precisely fuck-all to do with personal experience - as it's said, the plural of 'anecdote' is not data - and is not a matter of opinion. This is a result of inadequate education or brainwashing, plain and simple.

Jeff

Wow dude, this is the first time you and i agree on something

[JBroll]

Condescending? Not quite...

My statement was meant to separate recognition of evolution from religious or political beliefs, as it is miles away from either of them. Read the second sentence more closely, though, and 'inadequate education' - which frequently applies to rural, isolated Chinese farmers - clears that up.

The usual run of books by Richard Dawkins are well worth the read - The Blind Watchmaker promotes evolution and counters the usual run of arguments against, and doubts about, evolution, and The Selfish Gene (and its sequel, The Extended Phenotype) have no such argument (it's assumed, as if in a university course, that you already accept evolution and want more detail on the science) but clarify a lot of the misconceptions and explain where evolution has really gone. TalkOrigins is a very useful website - it was originally made (before I was born!) to pull stupid arguments out of the 'real science' Usenet groups, and to this day is still very useful for that sort of thing.

Jeff

[BigPhi84]

Any other websites you can think of? I'm kinda broke right now and can't afford to buy any books.

[IamOthello]

I still believe alot of the people are missing the point to this thread or are very afraid. :/

I really just wanted to see -WHY- people don't accept evolution as it is as true as me sitting here typing.

And to you Phi, this might be a nice place to start.



its a great lecture by Jerry Coyne

[JBroll]

Originally Posted by BigPhi84

Any other websites you can think of? I'm kinda broke right now and can't afford to buy any books.

TalkOrigins has tons of stuff. You probably won't run out of good reading material there.

There's a documentary on the topic if you can't pick up the book. I wouldn't be surprised if your local library had at least some of his works, and I believe a good chunk of them can be sampled at Google Books.

Jeff

[troyguitar]

So 45% of Americans are complete morons...

[IamOthello]

Originally Posted by troyguitar

So 45% of Americans are complete morons...

But being cruel about it, although it is unbelievably fun, I've realized is not the way to get to the people like that. Alot of them don't even realize that we have any forms of fossils that show ANYTHING. They don't even understand common ancestors. It's almost understandable why they do not believe. Because they have been shown the opposite of evidence. They have been given false, negative, and incorrect information about it. It's disgustingly putrid and I would love to pitch in my part to stop that. Hence this thread.

[estabon37]

Originally Posted by IamOthello

But being cruel about it, although it is unbelievably fun, I've realized is not the way to get to the people like that. Alot of them don't even realize that we have any forms of fossils that show ANYTHING. They don't even understand common ancestors. It's almost understandable why they do not believe. Because they have been shown the opposite of evidence. They have been given false, negative, and incorrect information about it. It's disgustingly putrid and I would love to pitch in my part to stop that. Hence this thread.

I admit I can become quite obnoxious when I'm having these discussions with people (especially when drunk), but I feel that it is important that these conversations take place. Conversation encourages thought, and I've been surprised in my life by the amount of people who are willing to believe the religious versions of events just because they don't want to have to think about things for themselves.

[budda]

"Jehobo's witness"

[liquidcow]

Originally Posted by MF_Kitten

my point exactly, hence the "so to speak" part. i´m tired of trying to explain that point to people who are against evolution.

also, what the hell is up with people saying "it´s just a theory"?!

GRAVITY IS "JUST" A THEORY TOO!

when you write the "wallbash" emoticon, it´s easy to mistakenly write "ballwash" if you´re tired. heheh.

I'll tell you what's up with that. The word 'theory' in colloquial use means a speculative idea about something - 'my car broke down, I've got a theory about what's wrong'. In science, it's a different word really, the name 'theory' is the closest thing to certain you can get, it is pretty much like saying 'beyond a reasonable doubt'. Scientists call evolution a Theory because it fits the latter definition that it has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt (and nothing is ever completely certain, even if it's 99.999999% certain that's not 100%). However, creationists love quote mining and seize upon the word 'theory' and show it to people who only understand its colloquial meaning, who then think that's it's some vague notion that hasn't been proven.

Oh and someone mentioned fossils. What's interesting is that while creationists love to talk about 'gaps in the fossil record', fossils aren't even necessary to prove evolution, there's enough evidence from comparing living species and looking at things like DNA. Fossils are always interesting though.

Personally I do think that evolution pretty much proves against god. Fair enough it doesn't explain how life kicked off (it doesn't claim to), but it certainly proves that none of the gods of any religion could exist. The more is learnt about it, the less room there is to introduce a god that 'guides the process', until eventually you realise that there is no room or need at all. In fact, many things (such as the old creationist/ID favourite the eye) are so strangely put together that they could only have evolved, as no sane designer would have built them that way.

[xtrustisyoursx]

I don't see why most of you are lumping the 38% in as being the same as those who don't believe in evolution at all. The idea of a "supreme being" is pretty broad, and even the statement that that god "guided" evolution is pretty broad. For example, me and my girlfriend (who is a biologist) both believe in evolution, and both believe in a supreme God.