[Setnakt]

Your god sucks at designing things.

[IamOthello]

Originally Posted by xtrustisyoursx

I don't see why most of you are lumping the 38% in as being the same as those who don't believe in evolution at all. The idea of a "supreme being" is pretty broad, and even the statement that that god "guided" evolution is pretty broad. For example, me and my girlfriend (who is a biologist) both believe in evolution, and both believe in a supreme God.

How? When I am speaking of God in this particular paragraph I am speaking of the Judeo-Christian God.... SO.... How can you possibly believe evolution and God co-exist? Like I said I am trying to be very respectful but that is so irrational to even be able to believe in God and evolution. Unless you are one of those "pick and choosers".

Originally Posted by liquidcow

I'll tell you what's up with that. The word 'theory' in colloquial use means a speculative idea about something - 'my car broke down, I've got a theory about what's wrong'. In science, it's a different word really, the name 'theory' is the closest thing to certain you can get, it is pretty much like saying 'beyond a reasonable doubt'. Scientists call evolution a Theory because it fits the latter definition that it has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt (and nothing is ever completely certain, even if it's 99.999999% certain that's not 100%). However, creationists love quote mining and seize upon the word 'theory' and show it to people who only understand its colloquial meaning, who then think that's it's some vague notion that hasn't been proven.

Oh and someone mentioned fossils. What's interesting is that while creationists love to talk about 'gaps in the fossil record', fossils aren't even necessary to prove evolution, there's enough evidence from comparing living species and looking at things like DNA. Fossils are always interesting though.

Personally I do think that evolution pretty much proves against god. Fair enough it doesn't explain how life kicked off (it doesn't claim to), but it certainly proves that none of the gods of any religion could exist. The more is learnt about it, the less room there is to introduce a god that 'guides the process', until eventually you realise that there is no room or need at all. In fact, many things (such as the old creationist/ID favourite the eye) are so strangely put together that they could only have evolved, as no sane designer would have built them that way.

And liquid, you sound like a fellow Dawkins follower? Saw him speak at Indiana University about a month ago!

but to my point of this quote. Also, to you who don't understand fossils, there are no such thing as "missing gaps" because the problem with that is every animal ever born is a part of this beautiful process, even the ones who die off, just happen to be missing gaps. As soon as you fill in a "missing link" two new missing links appear because of the way gradual change works.

and yes Cow is right, evolution could still be just as accepted with out fossils at all. Fossils are, if anything a nuisance because they are taken out of context constantly by creationists, AND they take up alot of work with all the paleontologists and morphologists arguing about what to call them, lmao.

Originally Posted by Setnakt

Your god sucks at designing things.

Indeed their God does. After all, humans have a blind spot in both eyes. Good job God!

[liquidcow]

Originally Posted by IamOthello

And liquid, you sound like a fellow Dawkins follower? Saw him speak at Indiana University about a month ago!

Well yes, although I know those things I said independently of reading Dawkins (for example my brother is a biochemist), I am something of a follower of his. I haven't read a lot of his books but I've got The Selfish Gene lying around waiting to be read, and his new one. I would love to see him speak as he seems like a very good speaker from what I've seen.

[xXxPriestessxXx]

Spending time in a microbiology lab running antibiotic resistance tests has absolutely proven to me that evolution is fact. I watched those little guys be exposed to an antibiotic and within one generation develop a resistance. I was totally blown away by that and no person will ever convince me that evolution doesn't exist.

[IamOthello]

Originally Posted by xXxPriestessxXx

Spending time in a microbiology lab running antibiotic resistance tests has absolutely proven to me that evolution is fact. I watched those little guys be exposed to an antibiotic and within one generation develop a resistance. I was totally blown away by that and no person will ever convince me that evolution doesn't exist.

this this this this thisthis

[liquidcow]

Originally Posted by xXxPriestessxXx

Spending time in a microbiology lab running antibiotic resistance tests has absolutely proven to me that evolution is fact. I watched those little guys be exposed to an antibiotic and within one generation develop a resistance. I was totally blown away by that and no person will ever convince me that evolution doesn't exist.

Exactly, and then there's tests done with bacteria done over several years that have fascinating results, all completely explainable by genetic mutation, no need whatsoever for a god to 'guide' the process. If that can happen over a few years in isolated conditions, then it's no surprise what can happen over millions of years on this planet.

[Deconstruct]

Originally Posted by Setnakt

Your god sucks at designing things.

Pretty cool comment, and it contributes to the conversation so well! Thanks!

These two ideas can work together, as stated by a few other people in this thread, but the only thing keeping it from happening is the relentless bashing of both sides upon each other. The only real intelligible debates are ruined by comments that show nothing less than disrespect for the other side. There are proponents of creationism that are out there, but there are plenty of reasonable people there, too. There are concessions that should be made from one side more than the other and the conservative Christians won't make it, but there are still those that do. Just kind of tired of this "open-minded" site that accepts anyone, unless you believe in a God.

[IamOthello]

Originally Posted by Deconstruct

There are proponents of creationism that are out there, but there are plenty of reasonable people there, too.

I have to address this specifically. I disagree, I don't believe you can be "reasonable" and creationist at the same time. You do realize these people believe people RODE dinosaurs right...? Walk into the creationist museum, first thing you see is a man on a dinosaur. I agree that you can be "logical" and be a religious person, but logic =/= creationism.

[xXxPriestessxXx]

Originally Posted by liquidcow

Exactly, and then there's tests done with bacteria done over several years that have fascinating results, all completely explainable by genetic mutation, no need whatsoever for a god to 'guide' the process. If that can happen over a few years in isolated conditions, then it's no surprise what can happen over millions of years on this planet.

It really is amazing to watch evolution in bacteria because it can happen over a shorter time than evolution of larger animals. The generation time of the bacteria I have studied was 3 days. 3 days and they had already completely changed their membrane structures to block out the antibiotic. That will always go down as one of the coolest things to have ever witnessed.

[Deconstruct]

Originally Posted by IamOthello

I have to address this specifically. I disagree, I don't believe you can be "reasonable" and creationist at the same time. You do realize these people believe people RODE dinosaurs right...? Walk into the creationist museum, first thing you see is a man on a dinosaur. I agree that you can be "logical" and be a religious person, but logic =/= creationism.

I think I used "Creationist" when I meant "Christian", and generally replaced one with the other throughout this thread. Yeah, there are some people that are a bit off (the people who believe Earth to be only 6 or 7 thousand years old). I think the main part of my post was supposed to be that "you can be 'logical' and be a religious person", but I missed it by a bit. Sorry about that.

[silentrage]

Of course creationists or christians can be reasonable or logical. Most people are morally flexible, and it's impossible not to doubt your own ideas when an opposing idea is presented to you with some credibility, intelligibility and due respect, this doubt can easily lead to compromises within the contents of your own belief.

To adhere to a system of belief so strictly ,entirely and without compromise usually requires some kind of Orwellian ministry-of-love style psychological conditioning that most people who would like to impose it on others are just too incompetent to pull off.

[IamOthello]

Originally Posted by silentrage

Of course creationists or christians can be reasonable or logical. Most people are morally flexible, and it's impossible not to doubt your own ideas when an opposing idea is presented to you with some credibility, intelligibility and due respect, this doubt can easily lead to compromises within the contents of your own belief.

To adhere to a system of belief so strictly ,entirely and without compromise usually requires some kind of Orwellian ministry-of-love style psychological conditioning that most people who would like to impose it on others are just too incompetent to pull off.

Assuming we are all talking about the same genre of creationism witch is Y.E.C....

How can you be a creationist and logical at the same time? Creationism really tells people the earth is 7-10 thousand years old, dinosaurs and men co-existed, and the scientific method is not scientific (how does that even make sense but I found it right here on - Refuting Evolution: Index).

Go here and read a bit, Refuting Evolution: Index. Do you really think any of these people have intelligence?

[JBroll]

There's a difference between 'not possessing' and 'not using everywhere'. Don't mix the two up.

Jeff

[silentrage]

IamOthello:
Well here's what I think. You present all the facts to a creationist, and attach him to a shotgun rig with the trigger controlled by the readout on a carbon dating device, which will blow his head off if the readout is more than 10,000 years, and do nothing if it's less than 10,000 years. Then you place a piece of dinosaur bone to be measured, and ask him if he believes that there's a chance your science could be right.
I think he would say he believes you and you can put the bone away.

[JBroll]

No, he may believe that carbon dating is flawed.

Jeff

[IamOthello]

Originally Posted by JBroll

No, he may believe that carbon dating is flawed.

This. They mainly hide behind their dogmatic, and flawed mantras ;/

[silentrage]

The point is not what they say they believe, because as long as their existence is not threatened, they're likely to say whatever is convenient, but if it's a life or death decision, such as in my example, I doubt anyone will stick by their supposed beliefs.

[Metal Ken]

The fact that people still believe in the "9/11 Truth movement" after having everyone one of those theories awesomely debunked is testimony to me why people wont look at the evidence of evolution.

[liquidcow]

Originally Posted by Metal Ken

The fact that people still believe in the "9/11 Truth movement" after having everyone one of those theories awesomely debunked is testimony to me why people wont look at the evidence of evolution.

Quite, I think people actually want to believe these things whether they're really true or not. In the case of the 9/11 conspiracy bullshit, the conspiracy gives a simple explanation and makes people feel like they're in on something or in some kind of spy movie. With creationism I guess it's the idea that we're here for a reason. I was watching the Dawkins/Derren Brown interview (which is on YouTube in it entirety) where Derren says that he has explained things like how cold reading is done to audiences at psychic shows, and people have actually come up to him afterwards and been angry because, even though they now understand how it's all faked, they would rather believe something that isn't true but that suits them. Very strange.

[Xanithon]

Originally Posted by estabon37

I admit I can become quite obnoxious when I'm having these discussions with people (especially when drunk), but I feel that it is important that these conversations take place. Conversation encourages thought, and I've been surprised in my life by the amount of people who are willing to believe the religious versions of events just because they don't want to have to think about things for themselves.

This is exactly what i feel and think - I really despise the machine programmed religion stuff (o noes, Athiest-fag raging) that goes on . Next year i get to delve more into Evolution and Microbiology in University! . This Creationism thing kind of makes me facepalm.. Hmm. This is why i'm a science guy, i'm not into the written word 'truth' expressed by novels.



PS. Yay for Selfish gene.. YAY ME!

[IamOthello]

Originally Posted by Xanithon

PS. Yay for Selfish gene.. YAY ME!

Selfish Gene is great! Check out Dawkin's new book if you get the time, its superb. Jerry Coyne has another new one out that is excellent.

[troyguitar]

Originally Posted by Deconstruct

Just kind of tired of this "open-minded" site that accepts anyone, unless you believe in a God.

That's how it feels in most of the country(world?) for people who are not religious. It's nice to at least have the internet.

[Tiger]

Originally Posted by troyguitar

That's how it feels in most of the country(world?) for people who are not religious. It's nice to at least have the internet.

This, I live in the south. I honestly believe I'd loose students if the parents knew I was atheist right out the gate.

[Scar Symmetry]

It genuinely freaks me out that really smart, intelligent people and some very powerful but not so smart people believe in a big man in the sky. When you have as much power as George W. Bush had and your policies are guided by Evangelism... yeah, that's scary.

[Setnakt]

To sort of defend my offhanded remark earlier, all of this attempted middle of the road attitude about how "I believe in evolution and a creator" business misses the fundamental point that we are just very badly designed. A lot of things about us work, but only enough for us to sort of survive and propagate most of the time. And when you think about it, without that, we wouldn't even be here, so none of that remotely contradicts evolutionary theory.

When any of us can outsmart our own supposed "intelligent creator" I think we seriously need to rethink our assumptions. To be offended at my comment is to basically admit you haven't watched any of the videos that have been posted here, much less read anything substantial about biology.