The Neckthru Myth - Page 2

Unknown Doodl3.2 · 07-28-2007, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murder Soul

Do you happen to know if older trees make better sounding wood?

That's another interesting one. i'm curious to know about this also...

This thread pwns

NiCkMiLnE · 07-28-2007, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Doodl3.2

That's another interesting one. i'm curious to know about this also...

This thread pwns

i suppose, as wood ages the tone apparently mellows.

but meh, you need to let wood dry and cure before you can use it anyway

kovachian · 07-31-2007, 09:20 PM

Just for the record, not all maple neck thru guitars with mahogany wings are heavy. My Carvin 7 string has maple and mahogany and is lighter than the mexi Fender strat I used to have.

FortePenance · 07-31-2007, 11:02 PM

well that is true but it depends on what you're comparing it to. I've held RG350s that are fvkkin heavy and their made of basswood. =/ But yes, my RGT isn't too heavy for a mahoguitar.

Atomic_gerbil · 08-01-2007, 01:19 AM

I ....in' love my RGT, lemme tell you that. Got it today. Just the no-trem version.

FortePenance · 08-01-2007, 01:49 AM

Agreed, playability is the shit yo. I wish mine had offset dot inlays like the FX one though.

LEWY7777777 · 08-01-2007, 03:12 AM

In a neckthru guitar the neck has more bearing because it is simply also the middle piece of the body. The body wings give up a little in return yet are still a vital part of the formula. The neck thru sends more energy up and down the guitar than widthwise being more powerful lengthwise has its affect on the balance of resonation throughout the guitar so you can characterize its frequency dynamic as being "a more precise sound". Neck throughs HAVE enhanced sustain and tonal properties associated with its construction of the neck. The mahogany wings add bass and another dynamic to the tone.

Your pickups have there own tone shaping properties that will modify the tone being delivered into them via string vibration carrying the woods 'character' wether or not they compliment the natural tone of your instrument depends on the woods employed and your ear, because it is this foundation that the pickups stand on. Also , even different strings have different tonal shape finishing touches- As with the tonal properties of any material , frets , bridges , tuners , etc. that are in use on the instrument.

Arctodus · 08-01-2007, 03:49 PM

Theres a huge factor of sound that also changes depending on how aligned the strings are at the nut and bridge. On a bolt guitar for instance its generally straight. Set necks have a fixed angle the strings travel. Neck thru guitars are straight but fixed with the guitar. Something as minor as this many people don't think about. The sound on a a bolt will always be the deepest because of this. Set necks generally contain a more mid tone and neck thrus will have the brightest tone. But thats generally more then one reason.

Neck thrus are commonly produced with 24 frets. 22/21 fret guitars have the 24th fret right over the neck pickup meaning the nodal point and octave can be obtained by picking it. This causes a warmer thicker sound at the neck pickup and as well pinch harmonics and harmonics are much more robust. 24 fret guitars loose the nodal point to the fretboard to produce a brighter, airy more ethereal sound. 24 fret guitars always sound "thinner" to me then a 21/22 fret guitar. You can compare and contrast yourself and notice a huge difference.

This is why I prefer bolt on guitars with 21/22 frets over mostly everything. I'll loose some woody tone for thicker sounding strings and richer harmonics.
I've had 2 Carvin guitars and they sounded so wimpy compared to my strat I decided to sell um.

D-EJ915 · 08-01-2007, 03:54 PM

The node thing only works when the string is open, that argument has been debunked a million times, it just sounds fatter is all, if you like the sound better then good for you but it's not better >__> I personally hate the sound of the neck pickup on guitars with less than 24 frets because it's too bassy.

The one sentence answer to how wood affects the sound is this:

The wood changes the way the strings vibrate.

Kakaka · 09-17-2007, 12:50 PM

^Sorry, I'll have to say that's not the case.

A string of certain gauge will always vibrate the same when you apply a certain tension to it. Of course, the ends to which it is attached must be of very solid and dense material in order to prevent wave attenuation (which happens when dudes put a piece of foam on the nut, it attenuates greatly some high frequency harmonics, of course it will take sustain and a bit of main frequencies, but with still useful sound). But since everyone's guitars are attached to holding ends made of steel, copper, bone, graphite, hard polymeric compounds, neck/body wood's a minimal factor on string vibration(excluding the fact that it is what keeps the string under tension).

Of course you need a solid neck and body to keep the string under tension, but that's just it. If you manage to keep the string tuned to let's say A (440 Hz) with two steel forcepses you'll get the same vibration you would with a maple neck, mahogany bodied guitar.

The way the wood affects tone is by attenuating(absorbing) waves of certain frequencies more than waves of other frequencies.

Same thing happens to the electronics. Of course, in terms of electromagnetic fields, but same thin: filter electric signal of some frequencies and cut other.

JJ Rodriguez · 09-17-2007, 01:13 PM

The science of guitars

How about this, we play what we like and don't over analyze it?

I prefer neck throughs for the feel when you're playing the higher frets, and the look (yes, a lame argument, but aesthetics are a big thing with guitars).

D-EJ915 · 09-17-2007, 01:18 PM

A string won't always vibrate the same way as another one man, that's not physically possible to us. Unless you make a 100% exact copy a string will be different than another one.

Aside from the string, the wood is the thing which vibrates the most in the guitar, the other things are chosen because they are strong and don't really affect the sound much. They are used to be a "stable base" for the string to vibrate on.

WillingWell · 09-18-2007, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMissing

My neck thru gibson SG was the best sounding, guitar I've ever owned, and had the best chord definition and clarity over any bolt on i've ever played. But it's preference.

All Gibsons are set necks, I don't think I've ever heard of an SG with a neck-thru style neck.

Kakaka · 09-18-2007, 03:51 PM

Quote:

A string won't always vibrate the same way as another one man, that's not physically possible to us. Unless you make a 100% exact copy a string will be different than another one.

Aside from the string, the wood is the thing which vibrates the most in the guitar, the other things are chosen because they are strong and don't really affect the sound much. They are used to be a "stable base" for the string to vibrate on.

Okay, but the difference between two sample strings of same brand and model is not noticeable by human ear, even Eric Johnson's. I

FortePenance · 09-19-2007, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillingWell

All Gibsons are set necks

I think the LPs, SGs and Explorers are sets. The Firebird is neckthru though AFAIK.

bostjan · 09-19-2007, 01:27 PM

Errg.

Each string vibrates at a set of frequencies. The amplitude of each frequency in the set determines the tone you hear. Everything you change that has mechanical interaction with the string will change the amplitudes of the frequencies. Any change in the guitar effects the tone.

If I change the material a string is made of, the wood in the fretboard, the wood in the body, the alloy of the frets, the electronics in the guitar, or the type of pick I use, it will change the tone. Even if I add a small weight to the headstock, it will change the tone.

If you want proof for yourself, you can take any two guitars and record them, download free software to do Fourier transforms on the sound clips and look at the amplitudes of the different frequencies. I've done this myself to look at the differences in Mahogany and Poplar, but don't take my word for it.

Kakaka · 10-08-2007, 12:50 PM

Up.

supertruper1988 · 10-08-2007, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D-EJ915

Aside from the string, the wood is the thing which vibrates the most in the guitar, the other things are chosen because they are strong and don't really affect the sound much. They are used to be a "stable base" for the string to vibrate on.

This is not true even these things have an effect on the tone of the guitar.

For example:
Old Les Pauls had aluminum tail pieces and bridge.
New Les Pauls have brass or other heavy alloy material for the tail piece and bridge.

I have both and the Aluminum is much brighter BUT it has less sustain.

Stitch · 10-08-2007, 01:57 PM

Les Pauls suck.

I actually took part in a seminar at University to day about this very thing, but most of my points were covered by Kakaka's first post.

So just pretend I said something fresh and interesting.

Kakaka · 10-09-2007, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by supertruper1988

This is not true even these things have an effect on the tone of the guitar.

For example:
Old Les Pauls had aluminum tail pieces and bridge.
New Les Pauls have brass or other heavy alloy material for the tail piece and bridge.

I have both and the Aluminum is much brighter BUT it has less sustain.

Yeah, true, the holding ends' material and geometry will have effect on sound and string vibration, just see that Kahler has an extense line of bridges with many different materials for their roller-balls, from brass to steel. They even indicate what the tonal quality it will enhance.

FortePenance · 10-12-2007, 10:28 AM

Question, slighty offtopic but whatever eh.

Since bridges make a difference to the sustain, will say something like a Fixed Edge bridge (think RG2228 or MTM1) have less sustain than say a TOM bridge seeing as how the strings in the Edge don't actually touch the wood of the guitar, whereas the TOM does?

bostjan · 10-12-2007, 01:44 PM

The edge will have less tone contributing from the wood. The more the wood is involved, the less the sustain. But FR trems, since they float, have lots of other variables.

skinhead · 10-12-2007, 02:04 PM

The wing affects the tone and the sustain on the instrument, just when you have more wood. That's why they use other type of woods.

Codyyy · 10-14-2007, 08:30 AM

When I used to try neck through guitars in guitar stores, I thought, once I get one of these, I'll never go back. Who would have guessed... I have a neck through and I'm currently saving up for a bolt on guitar. = less bright tone

10-14-2007, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Codyyy

When I used to try neck through guitars in guitar stores, I thought, once I get one of these, I'll never go back. Who would have guessed... I have a neck through and I'm currently saving up for a bolt on guitar. = less bright tone

When you get a seven you will want that bright tone back.

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08-01-2007, 03:54 PM	#34
D-EJ915 <3's Tsukasa Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Virginia, USA Posts: 18,749 Thanked: 220 Feedback Score: 6 reviews	The node thing only works when the string is open, that argument has been debunked a million times, it just sounds fatter is all, if you like the sound better then good for you but it's not better >__> I personally hate the sound of the neck pickup on guitars with less than 24 frets because it's too bassy. The one sentence answer to how wood affects the sound is this: The wood changes the way the strings vibrate. əBCAir

09-17-2007, 12:50 PM	#35
Kakaka I am with Jesus! Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: São Paulo-Brazil Posts: 589 Thanked: 6 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	^Sorry, I'll have to say that's not the case. A string of certain gauge will always vibrate the same when you apply a certain tension to it. Of course, the ends to which it is attached must be of very solid and dense material in order to prevent wave attenuation (which happens when dudes put a piece of foam on the nut, it attenuates greatly some high frequency harmonics, of course it will take sustain and a bit of main frequencies, but with still useful sound). But since everyone's guitars are attached to holding ends made of steel, copper, bone, graphite, hard polymeric compounds, neck/body wood's a minimal factor on string vibration(excluding the fact that it is what keeps the string under tension). Of course you need a solid neck and body to keep the string under tension, but that's just it. If you manage to keep the string tuned to let's say A (440 Hz) with two steel forcepses you'll get the same vibration you would with a maple neck, mahogany bodied guitar. The way the wood affects tone is by attenuating(absorbing) waves of certain frequencies more than waves of other frequencies. Same thing happens to the electronics. Of course, in terms of electromagnetic fields, but same thin: filter electric signal of some frequencies and cut other. Last edited by Kakaka; 09-18-2007 at 03:58 PM. Reason: some typing mistakes

09-17-2007, 01:18 PM	#37
D-EJ915 <3's Tsukasa Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Virginia, USA Posts: 18,749 Thanked: 220 Feedback Score: 6 reviews	A string won't always vibrate the same way as another one man, that's not physically possible to us. Unless you make a 100% exact copy a string will be different than another one. Aside from the string, the wood is the thing which vibrates the most in the guitar, the other things are chosen because they are strong and don't really affect the sound much. They are used to be a "stable base" for the string to vibrate on. əBCAir

09-19-2007, 01:27 PM	#41
bostjan Spastic Kitchen! Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: St. Johnsbury, VT USA Posts: 7,564 Thanked: 15 Feedback Score: 1 reviews	Errg. Each string vibrates at a set of frequencies. The amplitude of each frequency in the set determines the tone you hear. Everything you change that has mechanical interaction with the string will change the amplitudes of the frequencies. Any change in the guitar effects the tone. If I change the material a string is made of, the wood in the fretboard, the wood in the body, the alloy of the frets, the electronics in the guitar, or the type of pick I use, it will change the tone. Even if I add a small weight to the headstock, it will change the tone. If you want proof for yourself, you can take any two guitars and record them, download free software to do Fourier transforms on the sound clips and look at the amplitudes of the different frequencies. I've done this myself to look at the differences in Mahogany and Poplar, but don't take my word for it. [URL="http://sites.google.com/site/bostjanzupancickhereb/"[/URL]

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07-31-2007, 09:20 PM	#28
kovachian not banned at all Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 218 Thanked: 0 Feedback Score: 1 reviews	Just for the record, not all maple neck thru guitars with mahogany wings are heavy. My Carvin 7 string has maple and mahogany and is lighter than the mexi Fender strat I used to have.

07-31-2007, 11:02 PM	#29
FortePenance ss.org Regular Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 3,818 Thanked: 25 Feedback Score: 5 reviews	well that is true but it depends on what you're comparing it to. I've held RG350s that are fvkkin heavy and their made of basswood. =/ But yes, my RGT isn't too heavy for a mahoguitar.

08-01-2007, 01:19 AM	#30
Atomic_gerbil ss.org Regular Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Springfield, MO. Posts: 443 Thanked: 6 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	I ....in' love my RGT, lemme tell you that. Got it today. Just the no-trem version.

08-01-2007, 01:49 AM	#31
FortePenance ss.org Regular Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 3,818 Thanked: 25 Feedback Score: 5 reviews	Agreed, playability is the shit yo. I wish mine had offset dot inlays like the FX one though.

08-01-2007, 03:12 AM	#32
LEWY7777777 ss.org Regular Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: USA Posts: 329 Thanked: 0 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	In a neckthru guitar the neck has more bearing because it is simply also the middle piece of the body. The body wings give up a little in return yet are still a vital part of the formula. The neck thru sends more energy up and down the guitar than widthwise being more powerful lengthwise has its affect on the balance of resonation throughout the guitar so you can characterize its frequency dynamic as being "a more precise sound". Neck throughs HAVE enhanced sustain and tonal properties associated with its construction of the neck. The mahogany wings add bass and another dynamic to the tone. Your pickups have there own tone shaping properties that will modify the tone being delivered into them via string vibration carrying the woods 'character' wether or not they compliment the natural tone of your instrument depends on the woods employed and your ear, because it is this foundation that the pickups stand on. Also , even different strings have different tonal shape finishing touches- As with the tonal properties of any material , frets , bridges , tuners , etc. that are in use on the instrument.

08-01-2007, 03:49 PM	#33
Arctodus king of the monsters Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 190 Thanked: 2 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Theres a huge factor of sound that also changes depending on how aligned the strings are at the nut and bridge. On a bolt guitar for instance its generally straight. Set necks have a fixed angle the strings travel. Neck thru guitars are straight but fixed with the guitar. Something as minor as this many people don't think about. The sound on a a bolt will always be the deepest because of this. Set necks generally contain a more mid tone and neck thrus will have the brightest tone. But thats generally more then one reason. Neck thrus are commonly produced with 24 frets. 22/21 fret guitars have the 24th fret right over the neck pickup meaning the nodal point and octave can be obtained by picking it. This causes a warmer thicker sound at the neck pickup and as well pinch harmonics and harmonics are much more robust. 24 fret guitars loose the nodal point to the fretboard to produce a brighter, airy more ethereal sound. 24 fret guitars always sound "thinner" to me then a 21/22 fret guitar. You can compare and contrast yourself and notice a huge difference. This is why I prefer bolt on guitars with 21/22 frets over mostly everything. I'll loose some woody tone for thicker sounding strings and richer harmonics. I've had 2 Carvin guitars and they sounded so wimpy compared to my strat I decided to sell um.

09-17-2007, 01:13 PM	#36
JJ Rodriguez Pantysniffing zombie Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Fredericton, New Brunswick, Canada Posts: 11,717 Thanked: 82 Feedback Score: 18 reviews	The science of guitars How about this, we play what we like and don't over analyze it? I prefer neck throughs for the feel when you're playing the higher frets, and the look (yes, a lame argument, but aesthetics are a big thing with guitars).

10-08-2007, 12:50 PM	#42
Kakaka I am with Jesus! Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: São Paulo-Brazil Posts: 589 Thanked: 6 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Up.

10-08-2007, 01:57 PM	#44
Stitch Banned Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 7,889 Thanked: 126 Feedback Score: 10 reviews	Les Pauls suck. I actually took part in a seminar at University to day about this very thing, but most of my points were covered by Kakaka's first post. So just pretend I said something fresh and interesting.

10-12-2007, 10:28 AM	#46
FortePenance ss.org Regular Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 3,818 Thanked: 25 Feedback Score: 5 reviews	Question, slighty offtopic but whatever eh. Since bridges make a difference to the sustain, will say something like a Fixed Edge bridge (think RG2228 or MTM1) have less sustain than say a TOM bridge seeing as how the strings in the Edge don't actually touch the wood of the guitar, whereas the TOM does?

10-12-2007, 01:44 PM	#47
bostjan Spastic Kitchen! Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: St. Johnsbury, VT USA Posts: 7,564 Thanked: 15 Feedback Score: 1 reviews	The edge will have less tone contributing from the wood. The more the wood is involved, the less the sustain. But FR trems, since they float, have lots of other variables. [URL="http://sites.google.com/site/bostjanzupancickhereb/"[/URL]

10-12-2007, 02:04 PM	#48
skinhead Manager / RHLC © Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Argentina Posts: 5,675 Thanked: 55 Feedback Score: 2 reviews	The wing affects the tone and the sustain on the instrument, just when you have more wood. That's why they use other type of woods. Back to da 'hood (sevenstring.org)

10-14-2007, 08:30 AM	#49
Codyyy The Flip-Flopper Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 1,739 Thanked: 63 $Codyyy is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Codyyy is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Codyyy is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Codyyy is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Codyyy is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Codyyy is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Codyyy is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ Feedback Score: 0 reviews	When I used to try neck through guitars in guitar stores, I thought, once I get one of these, I'll never go back. Who would have guessed... I have a neck through and I'm currently saving up for a bolt on guitar. = less bright tone

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