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Unread 12-18-2011, 11:12 AM   #26
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Mounting the bridge 3mm further from the nut does not in any way shape or form effect string tension once intonated. Not sure why you guys are fighting McBrain, because as I see it he's 100% accurate.

Just because the bridge is just a really tiny bit further back does not mean the saddles are going to be further back.

Also, if it's just 3mm (~.1 of an inch), you'd only be adding ~.1lbs of tension to the string. Though, since the scale is not changing you're still going to be intonating in the same way.

And, I might not have owned as many high end guitars as engage757 but I've sure as hell have worked on a lot.

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Unread 12-18-2011, 12:02 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxOfMetal View Post
Mounting the bridge 3mm further from the nut does not in any way shape or form effect string tension once intonated. Not sure why you guys are fighting McBrain, because as I see it he's 100% accurate.

Just because the bridge is just a really tiny bit further back does not mean the saddles are going to be further back.

Also, if it's just 3mm (~.1 of an inch), you'd only be adding ~.1lbs of tension to the string. Though, since the scale is not changing you're still going to be intonating in the same way.

And, I might not have owned as many high end guitars as engage757 but I've sure as hell have worked on a lot.
Well you know when Max enters the fray, he always wins. Because chances are, he is right.

Also, Max, what is you opinion on Caparisons and what they are doing now?

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Unread 12-18-2011, 12:13 PM   #28
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Perhaps now they'll start marketing to the US more. Better dealer pricing in North America so dealers won't have to buy used on eBay just to turn a profit would probably lead to much better pricing for players as well.

I think Caparison makes some awesome guitars, but in the $2500 bracket they're competing with EBMM, Suhr Pro, USA Jackson, PRS, ESP, and upper echelon MIJ Ibanez, just about all of which I've found to be just a bit better than the few Dellingers I've gotten my hands on.
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Unread 12-18-2011, 12:23 PM   #29
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Perhaps now they'll start marketing to the US more. Better dealer pricing in North America so dealers won't have to buy used on eBay just to turn a profit would probably lead to much better pricing for players as well.

I think Caparison makes some awesome guitars, but in the $2500 bracket they're competing with EBMM, Suhr Pro, USA Jackson, PRS, ESP, and upper echelon MIJ Ibanez, just about all of which I've found to be just a bit better than the few Dellingers I've gotten my hands on.
True

The problem they do have is they are charging high prices for their guitars when manufacturers with the same high quality as Caparison are charging a bit less then they do (except PRS) and with more dealer and customer support.


From Guitar Asylum in an Email I sent them- We are not carrying Caparison at present. The Caparison company is still in transition..we will address it again in a few months


From all I know The Axe Palace is the only on left in the USA now. If they charged say ESP or even Jackson USA Pricing they would definitely be worth it to me. Back in 2008 when i first heard about them a Dellinger was 1,950, Horus was 1,850, and a TAT was 2,250, now a TAT is near 3 grand and a Dellinger is 2,399.

They make awesome guitars, just charge a bit for them.

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Unread 12-18-2011, 12:37 PM   #30
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Back when you used to be able to pick up Dellingers on eBay for $1200-$1600 new as imports they were pretty solid deals, and the quality, although not perfect, was still really good at that price point, and you knew upfront that you were not going to get a lot of support since they were imports.

It all comes down to their crazy dealer export pricing. I know that Japanese makers (such as them, ESP, and Ibanez) like giving their home market better pricing/deals/options, but it was ridiculous. I know guys like meestursparkle get some flack for being so willing to export (enough so that some bigger dealers in Japan got pretty pissed), but it's not his fault. See a market, fill it. It's good business. I think dealers were just really sore over how much it seemed like they were getting bent over a barrel.

I mean, right now I can buy a brand new (not used and Mint) Apple Horn Jazz for close to $2k on eBay from meestursparkle. The same guitar bought new in the US will run almost a full $1k on top of that.

Though, I'm willing to look on the bright side here. I think that with the restructuring of the company, and the fact that more effort is being put into displaying North American artists as well as having the website in English is showing that they may be gearing up to more competitive in this market. Then everyone wins.

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Unread 12-19-2011, 05:19 AM   #31
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So the HGS just means the bridge can be intonated better as there is more distance for the saddle to be adjusted?

Is that the consensus?

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Unread 12-19-2011, 08:56 AM   #32
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So the HGS just means the bridge can be intonated better as there is more distance for the saddle to be adjusted?

Is that the consensus?

Consensus? No. People are still going to fall for the marketing.

Though, it is the only thing it'll really do, and even then, 3mm of extra room to intonate isn't going to help too much on a 24.75" scale when you tune SUPER low.

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Unread 12-19-2011, 02:43 PM   #33
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pricing will still probably suck as the yen is too damn expensive in relation to the dollar.
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Unread 12-19-2011, 02:56 PM   #34
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I really hope this means they're going to try to continue long running production. I've been bitten by the Capa bug and I want to own one brand new in the near future. Loving the new site.

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Unread 12-19-2011, 03:28 PM   #35
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pricing will still probably suck as the yen is too damn expensive in relation to the dollar.
Doesn't stop Ibanez, Jackson, Fender, or ESP from releasing some affordable, quality Japanese instruments.

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Unread 12-19-2011, 03:47 PM   #36
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OK, I can't stop thinking about the Apple Horn Jazz. I may need one.
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Unread 12-19-2011, 04:38 PM   #37
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Doesn't stop Ibanez, Jackson, Fender, or ESP from releasing some affordable, quality Japanese instruments.
those guys have way more scale/volume and produce most of their volume outside of japan (indonesia, china, korea, USA)

Caparison must pay japanese workers, in yen, to make guitars with parts/woods bought in yen. they are 100% exposed to the current high value of the yen

of course, the inner financials of all these companies are unknown, so i am just theorizing here
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Unread 12-20-2011, 12:43 AM   #38
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whenever you move a bridge further away from the tuners, you increase the scale length. When you increase the scale length, you increase the tension on the same set of strings that you use on a shorter scale. think about tuning the same set of strings on a baritone scale to the same tuning as you would on a standard scale, you get greater tension, end of story. basic physics. the same is true on an HGS, the tension IS slightly higher, without a doubt. try tuning your HGS Horus with the same string to drop B, and then tune your standard Horus to Drop B with the same strings. I have done it. and played them side-by-side. There IS a difference. without a doubt. Basic physics. End of story. Is 3mm a huge difference? depends on your strings and tuning. But, when diggin into subterranean lows? EASILY a difference.

Also, Max, you have gone through plenty of high-end guitars man, we are both gear whores. On an equal level to be sure man!
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Unread 12-20-2011, 12:44 AM   #39
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Doesn't stop Ibanez, Jackson, Fender, or ESP from releasing some affordable, quality Japanese instruments.
Agreed, but only to some degree. ESP Jpan guitars are getting more expensive in relation to the Dollar. SO are J. Custom.
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Unread 12-20-2011, 12:45 AM   #40
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Consensus? No. People are still going to fall for the marketing.

Though, it is the only thing it'll really do, and even then, 3mm of extra room to intonate isn't going to help too much on a 24.75" scale when you tune SUPER low.
Hence the old Schaller bridge.
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Unread 12-20-2011, 01:02 AM   #41
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those guys have way more scale/volume and produce most of their volume outside of japan (indonesia, china, korea, USA)

Caparison must pay japanese workers, in yen, to make guitars with parts/woods bought in yen. they are 100% exposed to the current high value of the yen

of course, the inner financials of all these companies are unknown, so i am just theorizing here
You're forgetting the Chatting Bird line of guitars, which are Caparison's imports.

I don't see how Caparison paying a third, Japanese party to build their guitars is too much different from Ibanez who also pays a third, Japanese party to build their guitars.

Of course economy of scale can be factored in, and it makes a difference, but whether that difference it big enough to make a 100% price difference is debatable. Though, I guess we'll never know.

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whenever you move a bridge further away from the tuners, you increase the scale length. When you increase the scale length, you increase the tension on the same set of strings that you use on a shorter scale. think about tuning the same set of strings on a baritone scale to the same tuning as you would on a standard scale, you get greater tension, end of story. basic physics. the same is true on an HGS, the tension IS slightly higher, without a doubt. try tuning your HGS Horus with the same string to drop B, and then tune your standard Horus to Drop B with the same strings. I have done it. and played them side-by-side. There IS a difference. without a doubt. Basic physics. End of story. Is 3mm a huge difference? depends on your strings and tuning. But, when diggin into subterranean lows? EASILY a difference.

Also, Max, you have gone through plenty of high-end guitars man, we are both gear whores. On an equal level to be sure man!
Though they're not changing the scale, they're just moving the bridge. There's a big difference between the two. The scale is remaining the same, thus you're going to be intonating at the same point as the 12th fret (and all other frets) are in the same location.

I've moved bridges on many guitars, some as much as .5" and it doesn't effect string tension. What it effects is the range of intonation.

The scale of a guitar is NOT the distance from the nut to bridge plate, it's two times the distance from nut to 12th fret. On traditionally fretted instruments the scales are not finite, hence why the saddles at the bridge are arranged in a step pattern. Take a regular Caparison and it's HGS equivalent and measure from the nut to the 12th fret, if the distance is the same (which it's advertised as) then the scales are identical, regardless of bridge placement.

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Agreed, but only to some degree. ESP Jpan guitars are getting more expensive in relation to the Dollar. SO are J. Custom.
The Caparisons I have played (three Dellingers, a TAT, and a Dellinger 7 Trem) all had quality similar to middle of the road Prestiges (~$1100) and Standard Series ESP (~$1400) they have not been on par with the ESP Customs or J.Customs I've played, worked on, or owned.

Not to say all Caparisons don't measure up, but the ones I've played which now go for $2400 don't.

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Unread 12-20-2011, 09:32 AM   #42
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You're forgetting the Chatting Bird line of guitars, which are Caparison's imports.

I don't see how Caparison paying a third, Japanese party to build their guitars is too much different from Ibanez who also pays a third, Japanese party to build their guitars.

Of course economy of scale can be factored in, and it makes a difference, but whether that difference it big enough to make a 100% price difference is debatable. Though, I guess we'll never know.



Though they're not changing the scale, they're just moving the bridge. There's a big difference between the two. The scale is remaining the same, thus you're going to be intonating at the same point as the 12th fret (and all other frets) are in the same location.

I've moved bridges on many guitars, some as much as .5" and it doesn't effect string tension. What it effects is the range of intonation.

The scale of a guitar is NOT the distance from the nut to bridge plate, it's two times the distance from nut to 12th fret. On traditionally fretted instruments the scales are not finite, hence why the saddles at the bridge are arranged in a step pattern. Take a regular Caparison and it's HGS equivalent and measure from the nut to the 12th fret, if the distance is the same (which it's advertised as) then the scales are identical, regardless of bridge placement.



The Caparisons I have played (three Dellingers, a TAT, and a Dellinger 7 Trem) all had quality similar to middle of the road Prestiges (~$1100) and Standard Series ESP (~$1400) they have not been on par with the ESP Customs or J.Customs I've played, worked on, or owned.

Not to say all Caparisons don't measure up, but the ones I've played which now go for $2400 don't.

You should definitely play an angelus.
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Unread 12-20-2011, 10:18 AM   #43
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I'd love to try an Angelus TR, though they don't come around too often, and for that kind of cash I could get another EGS.

Beautiful guitars though.

How's the weight on them? Balance?
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Unread 12-20-2011, 10:35 AM   #44
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That Orbit is so sexy!

If they made a 7-string Horus or Orbit, I would sell a kidney. The bad one.
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Unread 12-20-2011, 11:25 AM   #45
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I'd love to try an Angelus TR, though they don't come around too often, and for that kind of cash I could get another EGS.

Beautiful guitars though.

How's the weight on them? Balance?
I know where one in trans-black is. I just prefer the HGS and M3b. Balance is perfect in my opinion, down low and also about waist high. I tend to play with the upper horn at waist level when playing rhythm and several inches higher when playing more lead. The weight is nice. maybe around 8 pounds I think mine was?
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Unread 12-28-2011, 12:33 AM   #46
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I found a second hand horus that has a Floyd, but no locking nut or tuners.

What is this madness?

I would block it anyway, so it may not matter, but que?
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Unread 12-29-2011, 09:52 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by engage757 View Post
whenever you move a bridge further away from the tuners, you increase the scale length. When you increase the scale length, you increase the tension on the same set of strings that you use on a shorter scale. think about tuning the same set of strings on a baritone scale to the same tuning as you would on a standard scale, you get greater tension, end of story. basic physics. the same is true on an HGS, the tension IS slightly higher, without a doubt. try tuning your HGS Horus with the same string to drop B, and then tune your standard Horus to Drop B with the same strings. I have done it. and played them side-by-side. There IS a difference. without a doubt. Basic physics. End of story. Is 3mm a huge difference? depends on your strings and tuning. But, when diggin into subterranean lows? EASILY a difference.

Also, Max, you have gone through plenty of high-end guitars man, we are both gear whores. On an equal level to be sure man!
It doesn't matter at all where you place the bridge. The saddle is still going to be placed at the exact same distance from the nut. The bridge is moved 3mm one way, but the saddles are moved 3mm the other way so the scale is still the exact same.

Stop trying to argue when MaxofMetal has already proven you wrong.

Last edited by Dionysian; 12-29-2011 at 09:53 AM. Reason: Removed some swear words .. I'm not THAT angry yet!
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Unread 12-29-2011, 10:49 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonblade629 View Post
But your denying physics. Take a rubber band, stretch it so it begins to fell taut. Stretch it 3mm. Is it tighter?
The strings are touching at 2 "pivot" points, which will be the same no matter where the bridge is located, in order to intonate the string
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Unread 12-29-2011, 08:42 PM   #49
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God damn, this thread is hostile.
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Unread 12-30-2011, 06:20 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eskil Rask View Post
It doesn't matter at all where you place the bridge. The saddle is still going to be placed at the exact same distance from the nut. The bridge is moved 3mm one way, but the saddles are moved 3mm the other way so the scale is still the exact same.

Stop trying to argue when MaxofMetal has already proven you wrong.

No one asked you man and the conversation WAS over. go argue with Itaru if you have a huge problem with it, he said it, not me. Stop trying to flame and start arguments. Oh yeah, and you apparently haven't seen the schaller bridge in question.

NOT trying to get a flame going, but the convo was WAAAAYYYYY over.
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