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Old 05-28-2006, 12:33 AM   #1
Mind Riot
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Mind Riot's Guide to D'Addario String Tension

Sorry about the delay everybody, I got it worked out now.

Mind Riot's Guide to String Tension

Most guitarists use whatever strings are available to them, and are quite happy doing things that way. If you are one of those, this might not be of particular interest to you. But given that individual and custom strings are becoming more widely available through the internet many guitarists are seeking to experiment with different tensions and sizes of strings. In particular, seven string guitarists and other lower range players are interested in this as they've found that having the right tension on your strings becomes more important the lower you go and has more of an effect on how things play and sound. They've also noticed that the low B strings many makers package with their seven string sets, while looking good numerically as far as their guage, are wildy different tension wise than the rest of the set.

Many, if not most, guitarists may not notice these things. And again, if you are one of those, more power to you, it's easier for you to get strings that please you than it is for some others. But for those who are interested in trying out different guages and tensions of strings or are just curious about such things, I hope some of this information will prove helpful or at least interesting.

There seems to be two major methods of doing things when it comes to making what some would call a 'tension matched' set of strings. One is to make all the strings right around the same tension, the other is to have the string tension slightly increase as the strings get bigger. Personally, I kind of do both, in that I try to make my unwound strings around the same tension with each other for consistent feel and bending and then make my wound strings similar tension to each other as well, but higher tension than the unwound strings. (If I'm missing some other methods, forgive me.)

A typical 10-46 set of strings, tuned to standard on a 25 1/2" scale, is already a pretty nicely balanced set as far as tension goes. (By the way, these measurements, as well as the entire list, are in pounds and are rounded to the nearest hundredth of a pound.) It is pretty consistent, with the exception of the low E string which has a full two pounds less tension than the A string. The set would be more balanced with a .049 low E string , which would give a more even 19.66 pounds of tension.

E: .010: 16.2
B: .013: 15.37
G: .017: 16.56
D: .026: 18.39
A: .036: 19.52
E: .046: 17.47

But now, when we look at the typical string that manufacturors include in these kind of sets as a low B string, we can see how simply adding ten thousandths of an inch to each strings' thickness does not keep the tension consistent.

B: .056: 14.78

Almost three pounds less than the low E string which is in itself two pounds less than the A. The low B string has almost five pounds less tension than the A string. Many string manufacturors include this guage of string in their seven string sets. To get an even tension with the A string, we would need to go up to a .064 (19.24) or .066 (20.5). As you can see, as the pitches get lower the strings need to get bigger in larger steps to maintain even tension. Going up from .026 to .036 may keep the tension even from D to A, but to keep it even in E you need to go up thirteen thousands of an inch and to go from THAT to B you need to go up fifteen. As the pitches get lower, the size differences between the strings gets bigger to maintain equal tension.

Now whether you're just looking for the perfect B string or are going with a total custom string set or anywhere in between, I hope that this list of tensions will prove helpful.

For some nitty gritty facts, here's the formula I used for my calculations:

F=Frequency

L=Scale length

UW=Unit weight


Tension=(UW x (2 x L x F)2) / 386.4

As I said, all tensions are measured in pounds and are rounded to the nearest hundredth of a pound. I got my information on the string unit weights from a .pdf that D'Addario publishes, I believe you can find it on thier website (although, for some reason they don't seem to make a .058 wound string, which I know other manufacturors do and some folks use, but hopefully you'll be able to tell well enough where to go from the info on the .056 and .059 guages).

As we all know, the scale length of a guitar radically affects it's feel as well as the string tension, so for each pitch and string I'm providing string tensions for four of the more common scale lengths (at least for seven string players). The lengths are 24 3/4" (short scale, Gibson Les Paul length), 25 1/2" scale (Fender scale, probably the most common overall, for seven or six string), 26 1/2" (Schecter extended scale as found on their Blackjack and Hellraiser series of guitars as well as some of their other models), and 27" (extended scale as found on the Ibanez RG7421XL, 1077XL, and other models as well as some of ESP's sevens and the Soloway Swans).

I was originally going to provide a more comprehensive list of tensions, for all pitches within a certain range of the string. For instance, for the .007 that's first, I was going to provide tensions on all four scales for every pitch from the C just above the B string to a high G, but after getting into that I realized how much data that was going to involve so I just stuck with fairly standard pitches. There is a very wide range of tastes when it comes to string tension, so most of the strings have tensions for more than one pitch in standard tuning. Tony Iommi used .008's, Stevie Ray Vaughan used .013's, so I tried to include tensions for a wide range. One man's B is another man's tight high E. Also, one of the most common practices for seven string players is to play in drop A, where they drop the low B string down one whole step to A while leaving the rest of the guitar in standard. This has a more pronounced effect on the tension of a low B string that it has when people do it with drop D on a six string, so when we get into the B string guages I include a tension for the string being tuned to A as well.

The pitches listed are standard tuning, with the exception of the high G listed in the smallest guage strings and the low A. I simply listed the pitches that would seem feasible to use with a given guage, hoping that everyone reading this would know enough about strings to not assume that when I list an E pitch for a .0012 string, I'm talking about the open high E on a guitar and not the low E. I hope that this will not be confusing to anyone.

I realize that there are all kinds of holes in a list like this, such as if you're going to be using open tunings (as I frequently do) or some other variation, but I hope that this basic list will at least give folks some idea of where to start. A special thanks is in order to WayneCustom7 for introducing me and others to these concepts.

Hope you all find this helpful!


.007
24 3/4"
G: 10.57
E: 7.48
25 1/2"
G: 11.22
E: 7.94
26 1/2"
G: 12.12
E: 8.57
27"
G: 12.58
E: 8.9

.008
24 3/4"
G: 13.82
E: 9.77
25 1/2"
G: 14.67
E: 10.37
26 1/2"
G: 15.84
E: 11.2
27"
G: 16.44
E: 11.63

.0085
24 3/4"
G: 15.6
E: 11.03
25 1/2"
G: 16.56
E: 11.71
26 1/2"
G: 17.88
E: 12.65
27"
G: 18.57
E: 13.13

.009
24 3/4"
E: 12.36
25 1/2"
E: 13.12
26 1/2"
E: 14.17
27"
E: 14.71

.0095
24 3/4"
E: 13.77
25 1/2"
E: 14.62
26 1/2"
E: 15.79
27"
E: 16.39

.010
24 3/4"
E: 15.26
25 1/2"
E: 16.2
26 1/2"
E: 17.5
27"
E: 18.16

.0105
24 3/4"
E: 16.83
25 1/2"
E: 17.86
26 1/2"
E: 19.29
27"
E: 20.02

.011
24 3/4"
E: 18.47
B: 10.36
25 1/2"
E: 19.6
B: 11
26 1/2"
E: 21.17
B: 11.88
27"
E: 21.98
B: 12.33

.0115
24 3/4"
E: 20.19
B: 11.33
25 1/2"
E: 21.43
B: 12.03
26 1/2"
E: 23.14
B: 12.99
27"
E: 24.03
B: 13.48

.012
24 3/4"
E: 21.98
B: 12.34
25 1/2"
E: 23.33
B: 13.09
26 1/2"
E: 25.2
B: 14.14
27"
E: 26.16
B: 14.68

.013
24 3/4"
E: 25.8
B: 14.48
25 1/2"
E: 27.38
B: 15.37
26 1/2"
E: 29.57
B: 16.6
27"
E: 30.7
B: 17.23

.0135
24 3/4"
B: 15.61
G: 9.83
25 1/2"
B: 16.57
G: 10.44
26 1/2"
B: 17.9
G: 11.27
27"
B: 18.58
G: 11.7

.014
24 3/4"
B: 16.79
G: 10.58
25 1/2"
B: 17.82
G: 11.23
26 1/2"
B: 19.25
G: 12.13
27"
B: 19.98
G: 12.58

.015
24 3/4"
B: 19.27
G: 12.14
25 1/2"
B: 20.46
G: 12.89
26 1/2"
B: 22.09
G: 13.92
27"
B: 22.94
G: 14.45

.016
24 3/4"
G: 13.81
25 1/2"
G: 14.66
26 1/2"
G: 15.84
27"
G: 16.44

.017p
24 3/4"
G: 15.6
25 1/2"
G: 16.56
26 1/2"
G: 17.88
27"
G: 18.56

.018p
24 3/4"
G: 17.48
25 1/2"
G: 18.56
26 1/2"
G: 20.04
27"
G: 20.8

.019p
24 3/4"
G: 19.48
25 1/2"
G: 20.68
26 1/2"
G: 22.33
27"
G: 23.18

.020p
24 3/4"
G: 21.59
25 1/2"
G: 22.91
26 1/2"
G: 24.75
27"
G: 25.69

.022p
24 3/4"
G: 26.12
D: 14.66
25 1/2"
G: 27.73
D: 15.56
26 1/2"
G: 29.94
D: 16.8
27"
G: 31.08
D: 17.44

.024p
24 3/4"
D: 17.44
25 1/2"
D: 18.52
26 1/2"
D: 20
27"
D: 20.76

.026p
24 3/4"
D: 20.47
25 1/2"
D: 21.73
26 1/2"
D: 23.47
27"
D: 24.36

.017w
24 3/4"
G: 13.46
25 1/2"
G: 14.28
26 1/2"
G: 15.43
27"
G: 16.01

.018w
24 3/4"
G: 15.14
25 1/2"
G: 16.07
26 1/2"
G: 17.36
27"
G: 18.02

.019w
24 3/4"
G: 16.92
25 1/2"
G: 17.96
26 1/2"
G: 19.4
27"
G: 20.14

.020w
24 3/4"
G: 18.26
D: 10.25
25 1/2"
G: 19.38
D: 10.88
26 1/2"
G: 20.93
D: 11.75
27"
G: 21.73
D: 12.19

.021w
24 3/4"
G: 20.2
D: 11.34
25 1/2"
G: 21.45
D: 12.03
26 1/2"
G: 23.16
D: 13
27"
G: 24.04
D: 13.49

.022w
24 3/4"
D: 12.56
25 1/2"
D: 13.33
26 1/2"
D: 14.39
27"
D: 14.94

.024w
24 3/4"
D: 14.84
25 1/2"
D: 15.76
26 1/2"
D: 17.02
27"
D: 17.66

.026w
24 3/4"
D: 17.32
A: 9.72
25 1/2"
D: 18.39
A: 10.32
26 1/2"
D: 19.86
A: 11.15
27"
D: 20.62
A: 11.57

.028
24 3/4"
D: 20.05
A: 11.25
25 1/2"
D: 21.28
A: 11.95
26 1/2"
D: 22.99
A: 12.9
27"
D: 23.86
A: 13.39

.030
24 3/4"
D: 23.56
A: 13.22
25 1/2"
D: 25.01
A: 14.04
26 1/2"
D: 27.01
A: 15.16
27"
D: 28.04
A: 15.74

.032
24 3/4"
D: 26.45
A: 14.84
25 1/2"
D: 28.08
A: 15.76
26 1/2"
D: 30.32
A: 17.02
27"
D: 31.48
A: 17.67

.034
24 3/4"
A: 16.57
E: 9.3
25 1/2"
A: 17.58
E: 9.87
26 1/2"
A: 18.99
E: 10.66
27"
A: 19.71
E: 11.06

.036
24 3/4"
A: 18.39
E: 10.32
25 1/2"
A: 19.52
E: 10.95
26 1/2"
A: 21.08
E: 11.83
27"
A: 21.88
E: 12.28

.038
24 3/4"
A: 20.31
E: 11.4
25 1/2"
A: 21.56
E: 12.1
26 1/2"
A: 23.28
E: 13.07
27"
A: 24.17
E: 13.57

.039
24 3/4"
A: 21.43
E: 12.03
25 1/2"
A: 22.75
E: 12.77
26 1/2"
A: 24.57
E: 13.79
27"
A: 25.51
E: 14.31

.042
24 3/4"
A: 24.77
E: 13.9
25 1/2"
A: 26.29
E: 14.76
26 1/2"
A: 28.39
E: 15.94
27"
A: 29.48
E: 16.54

.044
24 3/4"
A: 26.99
E: 15.15
25 1/2"
A: 28.66
E: 16.08
26 1/2"
A: 30.95
E: 17.37
27"
A: 32.13
E: 18.03

.046
24 3/4"
E: 16.46
25 1/2"
E: 17.47
26 1/2"
E: 18.87
27"
E: 19.59

.048
24 3/4"
E: 17.82
25 1/2"
E: 18.92
26 1/2"
E: 20.43
27"
E: 21.21

.049
24 3/4"
E: 18.52
25 1/2"
E: 19.66
26 1/2"
E: 21.24
27"
E: 22.04

.052
24 3/4"
E: 20.72
B: 11.63
A: 9.23
25 1/2"
E: 21.99
B: 12.34
A: 9.8
26 1/2"
E: 23.75
B: 13.33
A: 10.58
27"
E: 24.65
B: 13.84
A: 10.98

.054
24 3/4"
E: 23.18
B: 13.01
A: 10.33
25 1/2"
E: 24.61
B: 13.81
A: 10.96
26 1/2"
E: 26.58
B: 14.92
A: 11.84
27"
E: 27.59
B: 15.48
A: 12.29

.056
24 3/4"
E: 24.80
B: 13.92
A: 11.05
25 1/2"
E: 26.33
B: 14.78
A: 11.73
26 1/2"
E: 28.43
B: 15.96
A: 12.67
27"
E: 29.52
B: 16.57
A: 13.15

.059
24 3/4"
B: 15.51
A: 12.31
25 1/2"
B: 16.47
A: 13.07
26 1/2"
B: 17.78
A: 14.12
27"
B: 18.46
A: 14.65

.060
24 3/4"
B: 16.08
A: 12.76
25 1/2"
B: 17.07
A: 13.55
26 1/2"
B: 18.44
A: 14.63
27"
B: 19.14
A: 15.19

.062
24 3/4"
B: 17.09
A: 13.56
25 1/2"
B: 18.14
A: 14.4
26 1/2"
B: 19.59
A: 15.55
27"
B: 20.33
A: 16.14

.064
24 3/4"
B: 18.12
A: 14.38
25 1/2"
B: 19.24
A: 15.27
26 1/2"
B: 20.78
A: 16.49
27"
B: 21.57
A: 17.12

.066
24 3/4"
B: 19.31
A: 15.32
25 1/2"
B: 20.5
A: 16.27
26 1/2"
B: 22.13
A: 17.57
27"
B: 22.98
A: 18.24

.068
24 3/4"
B: 20.45
A: 16.23
25 1/2"
B: 21.71
A: 17.23
26 1/2"
B: 23.44
A: 18.61
27"
B: 24.34
A: 19.32

.070
24 3/4"
B: 21.58
A: 17.13
25 1/2"
B: 22.91
A: 18.18
26 1/2"
B: 24.74
A: 19.64
27"
B: 25.69
A: 20.39

.072
24 3/4"
B: 22.75
A: 18.05
25 1/2"
B: 24.15
A: 19.17
26 1/2"
B: 26.08
A: 20.7
27"
B: 27.07
A: 21.49

.074
24 3/4"
B: 23.89
A: 18.97
25 1/2"
B: 25.36
A: 20.13
26 1/2"
B: 27.39
A: 21.74
27"
B: 28.44
A: 22.57

.080
24 3/4"
B: 27.8
A: 22.06
25 1/2"
B: 29.51
A: 23.42
26 1/2"
B: 31.87
A: 25.29
27"
B: 33.08
A: 26.26
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Old 05-28-2006, 08:30 PM   #2
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this is great information , but.....
there is a difference between string tensions between different brands. a .01 from d'addario and ghs has a difference of almost 2 pounds.
check out some of the differences between brands here.

http://www.juststrings.com/electricguitar.html
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Old 05-28-2006, 10:28 PM   #3
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The tension specifications listed on juststrings.com don't have any background as to what scale length was used to take the measurements. Another thing to consider is that string making is not always as precise an affair as we would think it is; what's listed on the box and what the string actually is varies at times. In Dan Erlewine's book on guitar repair he mentions this after he measured some strings with a dial caliper and found some of them to be off by a few thousandths. But it's enough to provide some solid data to go on if this is your kind of thing.
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Old 05-29-2006, 12:35 AM   #4
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the difference in tension vs scale length is not mentoined. but different manufacturers use different amounts and even different materials in their strings. so there would be a difference just in the materials used.
as a side note, dial calipers have an error of +/- .002.this is not to say you can't measure to within .001. but you really need a micrometer for true measurements.
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Old 05-29-2006, 12:48 AM   #5
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I would be interested to see any proof you might have that there is a fundamental difference that would affect string tension between one manufacturors plain steel string and anothers plain steel string, or one's steel core nickel wrapped versus anothers, if the guages are the same.

If we're talking about the difference between stainless steel strings and nickel wrapped, then yes there is a difference and I neglected to mention that in my first post. Stainless steel wrapped strings will have a bit more weight to them and thus need slightly more tension to cause the string to vibrate at the desired pitch than nickel. So a stainless steel wrapped string will have a pound or more of tension than an equivalent guage nickel wrapped string at the same pitch, all else being equal. My apologies for not mentioning that originally, it totally did not even occur to me. So my list applies only to plain steel unwound strings and nickel wrapped wound strings.
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Old 05-29-2006, 12:06 PM   #6
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There are different geometries with wound strings. Steel strings can vary about 30% or more in density, and thus different brands with different weights will require different tensions. This has been discussed in depth before, but I can post some data from the AIP handbook about the density of steel if you want.

The basic thing with steel is that it is a word that describes many very different metals, but most manufacturers use one of three kinds of steel.

The great thing about D'Addario is that they print the data right on the package, or you can download their string guide from their webpage. Other manufacturers do not post such information. Perhaps one of us could take an .009"plain, an .024"wound, and a .046"wound, cut them to a standard length without the ball ends or the taper, and weight them carefully (say analytical balance). Try with different brands and report the findings. It'd be really cool to have the density data for all of the big companies like Ernie Ball, GHS, and DR.
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Old 05-29-2006, 03:03 PM   #7
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Wonderful. I guess I should have learned more about these things before I went to all that trouble.

Mods, perhaps this thread should be deleted as it's usefulness is now seriously in question. Unless everybody on here uses D'Addario strings exclusively.

Now I'm all depressed.
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Old 05-29-2006, 03:11 PM   #8
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I pretty much use D'Addarios exclusively.

Any idea where I can find those .007"s? I might need some if I run out of Garry Goodman's .005"s before they become available.

I didn't even know they made an .026" plain. I had to set up a guitar once, where this girl used a .024" plain, and it ruined my wire snippers.

Kudos for doing all of this work. I don't think it should be deleted, just augmented to include new data.
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Old 05-29-2006, 03:21 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mind Riot
Wonderful. I guess I should have learned more about these things before I went to all that trouble.

Mods, perhaps this thread should be deleted as it's usefulness is now seriously in question. Unless everybody on here uses D'Addario strings exclusively.

Now I'm all depressed.
How about a title edit?


Amp: 6505+ / Recto 4x12s
Rack: Axe-Fx II / HD1221s
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Old 05-29-2006, 11:48 PM   #10
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This is a good start and you deserve a lot of credit for the work you did.

Another issue with wound strings is the core. A thicker core means more tension. GHS for example says their strings have a thicker core than Ernie Ball strings. So the GHS strings have more tension. But without the unit weight of the strings in question its hard to say with any real certainty. Plus stainless steel wound strings have more tension then nickel plated steel.

But until more manufacturers do what D'Addario did and publish a string tension guide it will be hard to tell. GHS, on their forum, has said it may publish a string tension chart which will be very nice if they do it. I hope they do. It will be especially useful in seeing how materials affect tension, because GHS makes a lot more types of strings than D'Addario.

Again. you did a hell of a lot of good work Mind Riot.
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Old 05-30-2006, 02:28 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
How about a title edit?
Works for me. And hey, there can't be THAT much difference in tension to where someone looking for a tighter low B would end up with something way off just because they went with GHS or DR. At least it will get them in the ball park.

And thanks for the kindness, ohio eric.
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Old 05-30-2006, 10:21 PM   #12
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Works for me. And hey, there can't be THAT much difference in tension to where someone looking for a tighter low B would end up with something way off just because they went with GHS or DR. At least it will get them in the ball park.

And thanks for the kindness, ohio eric.
No problem.

You are right the D'Addario info should get you in the ball park.
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Old 06-01-2006, 02:29 PM   #13
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This is pretty damned cool.

"...and everything under the sun is in tune, but the sun is eclipsed by the moon."

Check out my debut album, Zero Mantra, on iTunes!
http://www.metalguitarist.org
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Old 01-03-2007, 09:56 AM   #14
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D'addario bastards!

I used to use Dean Markley strings for my 6's be cause they had noicably tighter tension over D'Addario and Ernest Ball. I have yet to see 7 string Markley sets in my town.

I've been using D'Addario 10-56 and have become quite used to them and had all of my 7's set up for use with this brand of strings. Last week I bought some new strings at GC and after I strung up My Carvin 727 I immediatley noticed something was weird. I looked at the box and D'Addario had changed the .56 to .59. I was like WTF? the .59 was way too big and barely fit through the sperzel tuner. It really didnt do anything for the string tension, everything played sharp because of the added mass of the string. Be aware D'Addario users, they switched it up! I go back to GC and all of the D'addario sets are 10-56. Its kinda funny because I asked specifically the guy for D'addario 10-56 and I got 10-59.

I've been forced to use Ernie Ball which I dont care for.... What other string options are there. Does GHS make a 7 set? Better yet does Dean Markley?
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Old 01-04-2007, 12:14 PM   #15
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I'm really glad d'addario make the 10-59 sets now, saves me money and having to hunt around for a .59
Luckily its the same as i was using on my 7 before, set of 10s with a .59.
I can understand how you would be annoyed if you didnt realise though, but for me .56 is far too low for B let alone Bb
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Old 01-08-2007, 04:36 AM   #16
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Thanks for doing the legwork for us man!


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BEYOND 6UITAR AND B4SS

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Old 02-17-2007, 05:53 PM   #17
WayneCustom7
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How come I am just seeing this now...WOW, you are the best Mind Riot, this is a lot of work...we should combine and sticky all of the threads related to OSG!


"and we'll also be establishing, beyond all scientific doubt, that ANY note can be made to sound good over ANY chord, so long as you put it in the right place!" Guthrie Govan
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Old 02-17-2007, 06:10 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WayneCustom7 View Post
How come I am just seeing this now...WOW, you are the best Mind Riot, this is a lot of work...we should combine and sticky all of the threads related to OSG!
Yeah I've had this bookmarked for a long time. I just put a set of 9-12-16-24-32-44-59 on my ESP and it feels and sounds great, apart from the low B which doenst sound very good. Will probably put the 56 back on, but I love how the 9-44 part feels
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Old 02-17-2007, 06:14 PM   #19
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It's wierd how, on these boards, where a group of individuals who are obviously into trying new things, hence the seventh string, were quite receptive to trying out the OSG theory. However when I tried posting on other borads, namely ones where the six string ruled supreme, the average answer was, 'if it aint broke then why fix it!'


"and we'll also be establishing, beyond all scientific doubt, that ANY note can be made to sound good over ANY chord, so long as you put it in the right place!" Guthrie Govan
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Old 02-17-2007, 10:10 PM   #20
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I've been kicking around doing this, would anyone be interested in a list of tension using bass strings? I know a few people on here use them especially for gauges above .060". It wouldn't be too much work I'd just need to know the scale lengths, pitches and gauges that I should run.

If you want it let me know and I can slap it together.
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Old 04-16-2007, 12:37 AM   #21
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I just put a .49 and a .66 on my guitar and it is so much better now, the .59 was ok but way too flimsy, the .66 is so much better. Its definitely easier to play and sounds better also. This is my first post on here so whats up dudes.
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Old 04-16-2007, 12:43 AM   #22
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Glad it worked out for you man. Welcome to the forum.
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Old 05-30-2007, 10:19 PM   #23
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To further aid Mind Riot's guide everyone should use this String Tension Applet. It is an applet utilizing the same D'Addario equations but does the calculations for you if you give it some basic information like scale length, the string gauge you want and whether the strings are plain steel, nickel wound etc.

http://www.pacificsites.net/~dog/Str...ionApplet.html
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Old 06-16-2007, 12:20 PM   #24
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This is an awesome post, I'm so glad it's here!

Question: has anyone experienced issues with the larger-than-standard E and B fitting through the nut or tuning post? I haven't tried this yet, but I'd hate to buy a full set of strings and two singles, then find the larger ones don't fit! So, any problems?
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Old 06-16-2007, 05:19 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bostjan View Post
I pretty much use D'Addarios exclusively.

Any idea where I can find those .007"s? I might need some if I run out of Garry Goodman's .005"s before they become available.

I didn't even know they made an .026" plain. I had to set up a guitar once, where this girl used a .024" plain, and it ruined my wire snippers.

Kudos for doing all of this work. I don't think it should be deleted, just augmented to include new data.
Please keep an eye on http://octave4plus.com
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