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Old 07-04-2009, 04:33 AM   #1
Apophis
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ROTER FANNED FRETS prodyction model ??? Go buy an AGILE instead!

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Old 07-04-2009, 04:35 AM   #2
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Do you even have to ask?

I even asked you about this yesterday!

EDIT: Is there any way that you could make the fan more extreme? I realise that you have to keep all specs uniform in order to keep costs down. Would a 24" to 28" fan be possible?
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Old 07-04-2009, 04:37 AM   #3
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A fan would have me a lot more interested in this run. Roughly what might be the price hike?

Edit: Also, why the 2" fan? Is it so there will be fewer complications from using straight pickups?

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Old 07-04-2009, 04:43 AM   #4
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I would also be intrigued as to an estimate of price on this one. Ive been itching after a fanned 8 for a while now.

The mirror which flatters not....
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Old 07-04-2009, 05:09 AM   #5
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1. price - I think we can have the price at the same level - 1000$ for 8 string
2. fan - I HAVE to do uniform fan for all guitars, can be more extreme of course, but something more extreme than 25-28 could be to extreme and uncomfortable to play
3. pickups - we can offer slanted pickups, but if someone would like to replace then in the future there won't be such option, cause he have to custom order again from other manufacturer, so straight pickup is more uniform option imo
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Old 07-04-2009, 05:13 AM   #6
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Would you be able to vary the fan according to the number of strings? I always thought that greater scale differences would be possible on 8s due to the wider neck (which makes the angle of frets slightly less extreme), in comparison to 6s.

Either way, keep us posted!

EDIT: Which fret would be "straight"?
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Old 07-04-2009, 05:14 AM   #7
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For a ~$1000 cost i'd be interested. The 25-28" sounds good too. Though i'd be undecided on whether the pups should be straight or slanted.

Any idea on what the perpendicular fret would be?
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Old 07-04-2009, 05:16 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HAUCH View Post
I would be into it bigtime. It would be killer to have a fanned 7.

This might sound like a retarded idea, but would you do a fanned 7 in 27.5/25.5?
Because that would ....ing own.
I think that we have to make guitar capable for many tunings, so idea about slightly more extreme fan like 25-28 is better idea imo, cause you can always go higher - highA using Garry's strings or go really low - low E maybe using heavier gauges and that 28" scale

but of course everything can be discussed, but I have to say that 25-28" idea is nice

also I have to stay with one fan, cause when I start doing different fans for different number of strings it will need more work from me and I want those guitars to be available, even maybe more than straight ones, cause it will be REALLY something new this time


BTW
about body I think we will go into some Imabez S/Blackmachine designs, meaning really thin, sculpted body for machimum comfort and playability, nothing like bulky PRS or LP designs, what do you think??


PARALLEL FRET - not decided yet, we can discuss with FF guitar users what is the best option, but I think 10th is the most common option
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Old 07-04-2009, 05:24 AM   #9
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Just like my girls, I like my guitars curvy and thick.

I've never been a fan of anorexic body designs, simply because I like them heavier.

Having said that, this is your line Apophis, and there are certainly far less slim designs than there are thicker ones. It would be something new.
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Old 07-04-2009, 05:47 AM   #10
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I luuuurve skinny guitars. And chicks, for that matter, but anyway. 25"-28" would have me far, far more interested than I can possibly afford to be. That is all I will say.
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Old 07-04-2009, 06:12 AM   #11
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it must be done
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Old 07-04-2009, 06:39 AM   #12
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Damn, it seems that I need to save up 'cause Roter guitar is more and more temptating for me
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Old 07-04-2009, 07:00 AM   #13
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Here are some thoughts I've had about the things discussed in the thread thus far. I'm not a luthier, and I've never played a multiscale instrument, so feel free to disregard anything I say that is unreasonable or just plain wrong. I think most of what I'm going to say here involves the pickups in one way or another, but it just seems to me that when making a multiscale guitar with straight pickups, most of the aspects of its design have to be made with that in mind. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, though.

On the 26"-28" vs 25"-28" fan, given the straight pickup, I'd vote for the 26"-28" fan. This is just because the straight pickup is going to intersect different strings at different points, creating an inconsistency across the strings. On my Agile 8, I already hear things as being just a hair too bright on the top string and a bit too round on the bottom string. A straight pickup on a multiscale guitar would bring things further in that direction. On a 2" fan, the difference could be slight enough that it wouldn't be too much of an issue. I don't know whether or not a 3" fan would make it much more noticeable, but it's something I'd be concerned about.

I'm split within myself as far as an opinion on the 10th fret being the straight one. When I kind of try it out on one of my guitars by holding my index finger flat across the fret that would be straight and moving my hand up and down the neck, fanning my wrist position as the frets would, it gets uncomfortable closer to the nut. This is the thought I have the least confidence in, since I've never played on fanned frets, and it's only a 2" or 3" fan. I'm probably wrong, and input from someone with experience would be great. However, moving the straight fret further from the nut makes the angle at the bridge less exaggerated and alleviates some of the issue with inconsistency between strings on the straight pickup.

Now, a thought about the pickup itself. I understand why you're leaning heavily toward using a straight pickup, since it's more of a manufacturing run than a one-off custom, and I don't disagree with your reasoning a single bit. Here's what occurred to me, though: From what little I have heard about them, your pickups seem to be pretty decent quality, so there's a good chance a large percentage of these guitars won't have their pickups changed. For those who do decide to change pickups, what kind of pickups do you think are probably going to be going in there, especially given that this is sevenstring.org? Chances are, any replacements will be Bare Knuckles, and while I haven't heard of many instances, I'm pretty sure that on at least one occasion, Tim has made a set of angled 8-string pickups. I think it follows to reason that this is an available option should it be requested, given that the customer can tell him what angle each pickup is at. Maybe Nick can confirm this if he sees this. I'd imagine other botique pickup makers like Kent Armstrong may also be able to accommodate something like an angled pickup. I can, however, see this being troublesome if somebody wants to put Lundgrens in there. EMGs and Blackouts would be troublesome, too, but I don't see those choices being as likely (though I could be wrong). If it seems like a viable idea, at some point it may be worth putting it to a vote among the people who are seriously considering making the purchase.

Building on that, angled pickups allow freer thought on things like the fan size and the location of the straight fret. A bigger fan would be possible without running into the same problems. I personally think something like a 24.5"-28.5" fan would be fantastic, but I'm not sure at what point a fan becomes too wide to be comfortable for an average guitarist.

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Old 07-04-2009, 07:09 AM   #14
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This has me VERY interested

But i think slanted pickups are much more suited to this kind of design =/

Tim at Bareknuckle will do custom slanted pups on request
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Old 07-04-2009, 08:57 AM   #15
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Awesome post Tom , you pointed all aspects to discuss

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomAwesome View Post
Here are some thoughts I've had about the things discussed in the thread thus far. I'm not a luthier, and I've never played a multiscale instrument, so feel free to disregard anything I say that is unreasonable or just plain wrong. I think most of what I'm going to say here involves the pickups in one way or another, but it just seems to me that when making a multiscale guitar with straight pickups, most of the aspects of its design have to be made with that in mind. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, though.
I also think that slanted pickups are the best option for multiscale instrument and I started to think that is ONLY option we have to choose, but let's see what we will end with

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomAwesome View Post
On the 26"-28" vs 25"-28" fan, given the straight pickup, I'd vote for the 26"-28" fan. This is just because the straight pickup is going to intersect different strings at different points, creating an inconsistency across the strings. On my Agile 8, I already hear things as being just a hair too bright on the top string and a bit too round on the bottom string. A straight pickup on a multiscale guitar would bring things further in that direction. On a 2" fan, the difference could be slight enough that it wouldn't be too much of an issue. I don't know whether or not a 3" fan would make it much more noticeable, but it's something I'd be concerned about.
I think that also, cause bigger than 2" fan without slanted pickups is not the best option imo, but in the other hand many users I heard/spoke with did not notice a big differences in tone using high gain amps like we all use, so we have to decide what option will be better - easy swap or perfect tone

Quote:
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I'm split within myself as far as an opinion on the 10th fret being the straight one. When I kind of try it out on one of my guitars by holding my index finger flat across the fret that would be straight and moving my hand up and down the neck, fanning my wrist position as the frets would, it gets uncomfortable closer to the nut. This is the thought I have the least confidence in, since I've never played on fanned frets, and it's only a 2" or 3" fan. I'm probably wrong, and input from someone with experience would be great. However, moving the straight fret further from the nut makes the angle at the bridge less exaggerated and alleviates some of the issue with inconsistency between strings on the straight pickup.
that is important thing to discuss, so all depends from playing technique imo. I'm more a shred player, so even big fan and high angled bridge or nut is not important to me, personally with that way of playing more angled nut is even better, cause it add better playability in high positions, when we shred the most. In the other hand more rhythm players will like the bridge to be more angled, cause low positions are easier to reach and complex chords are easier to use, because fan is lower.
So I think we have to make everything for both words.
As I said before for shredders like I fan is not so important, so maybe making even 8th or 6th fret as straight is the best option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomAwesome View Post
Now, a thought about the pickup itself. I understand why you're leaning heavily toward using a straight pickup, since it's more of a manufacturing run than a one-off custom, and I don't disagree with your reasoning a single bit. Here's what occurred to me, though: From what little I have heard about them, your pickups seem to be pretty decent quality, so there's a good chance a large percentage of these guitars won't have their pickups changed. For those who do decide to change pickups, what kind of pickups do you think are probably going to be going in there, especially given that this is sevenstring.org? Chances are, any replacements will be Bare Knuckles, and while I haven't heard of many instances, I'm pretty sure that on at least one occasion, Tim has made a set of angled 8-string pickups. I think it follows to reason that this is an available option should it be requested, given that the customer can tell him what angle each pickup is at. Maybe Nick can confirm this if he sees this. I'd imagine other botique pickup makers like Kent Armstrong may also be able to accommodate something like an angled pickup. I can, however, see this being troublesome if somebody wants to put Lundgrens in there. EMGs and Blackouts would be troublesome, too, but I don't see those choices being as likely (though I could be wrong). If it seems like a viable idea, at some point it may be worth putting it to a vote among the people who are seriously considering making the purchase.
of course there is always a possibility to swap pickups using BKP or other manufacturers, but we have to look at price. When I will order custom BKP for every guitar I do (what I can of course) price for pickups only will be at least 400$ I think, so if there will be such need, why not, but I would like to make that guitar cheaper, so I have to decide - order custom Merlin Pickups or custom BKP - the more I will order the less I will pay, other way we will pay market price, what is not so nice if we want that guitar to be available for masses

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomAwesome View Post
Building on that, angled pickups allow freer thought on things like the fan size and the location of the straight fret. A bigger fan would be possible without running into the same problems. I personally think something like a 24.5"-28.5" fan would be fantastic, but I'm not sure at what point a fan becomes too wide to be comfortable for an average guitarist.
that is alway a factor to discuss. I think also if we want that guitar to be available we have to decide that it will be 7 or 8 string, cause the same fan on both (extreme version) won't work the same, cause 7 will be way harder to play because of less wide fingerboard.
Personally I think that 7 string is a guitar to go, cause 8 string market is not so big there day still and simply price of mass production guitars can't be beat and all parts for 8 string guitars are more expensive, so price will be to high to average customer I think.
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Old 07-04-2009, 11:46 AM   #16
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Having poked around on two of Mike Sherman's fanned-fret 8s (one with perpendicular fret at the 12th and 29 frets and one 24-fretter with perpendicular at the 7th) I can say without reservation that a perpendicular fret at the 7th is the way to go, as the fret is right near the middle of the fingerboard and it feels very natural. It keeps it easy to chord at the mid/lower positions, and it's not until you get to the low strings around the 27th fret (yes, 27th!) that you can run into problems with the slant, and even then it's still playable with some practice and few people ever really play that high on the low B/E/A strings terribly often anyways..

I personally am pulling more for a 25.5-27.5, 25-27, or 25.5-27 more "minor" fan for a seven-string, as that keeps things within reach, makes playing less of a compromise, and covers the two major scale lengths (which most people have no problem dealing with.) This makes the instrument more accessible and more desirable. 25-27 or 25.5-27 would be my own choice of fan on a custom instrument.

Regarding straight versus angled pickups; I don't think it's a huge deal. If you really want to play around, just mount straight pickups at an appropriate angle so that they cover all of the strings (similar to how EVH and the old Kramers did it) and it'd be an easy replacement.

Otherwise, angled pickups can easily be rewound. Also, is there any chance of getting single-coils for this setup? I'm probably in the minority with this, but I use singles for a lot of my tones these days.

I also like the idea of the thin bodies quite a lot.
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Old 07-04-2009, 11:51 AM   #17
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Single coils will be as option I think
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Old 07-04-2009, 11:54 AM   #18
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If you guys could do this for 1000$ and make a S series esq body (or even better an SR series body ibanez's thin bass bodies) I would buy one of these the second I had money for it.

But for the moment being jobless sucks

But yeah I'd definitely buy atleast one if not 2 of these things at that price(a 6 and maybe a 7! or two 6's or 3 6's... your making my brain hurt seb). I was going to get a custom in the distant future for the soul purpose of getting a multiscale going not to mention some other things.
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Old 07-04-2009, 01:43 PM   #19
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Damn man, between this and full scallops I might end up buying these just as an affordable way to try out new features on guitars

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Old 07-04-2009, 02:15 PM   #20
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I think full/partial scalloping will be an option to choose as I mentioned in regular affordable line thread
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Old 07-04-2009, 06:46 PM   #21
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Well, I'm building a thin-bodied 8-string with a 25-28" fan and an angled pickup for my Home Depot guitar and possibly scalloping the fretboard too so that sounds like a good idea to me!
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Old 07-05-2009, 03:57 PM   #22
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Yeah, I'm into this as well. But what would really push me over the edge in terms of "must have" is a reverse headstock and aggressive body style. Thin style, RG style would be cool, but a Kelly or Warrior or Xiphos would RULE! Don't I remember you doing a style like that in blue for someone on here? That looked bad ass!

Edit: The Catmachin3 from Kissa3 is what I was thinking of. That thing is sa-weet!
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Old 07-05-2009, 04:04 PM   #23
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Hvaing the body in the style of a Xiphos, Warrior Kelly, Rhoads, V or any other "aggressive" shape would be a complete turn off for me.

EDIT: Apophis, would you be able to have multiple body designs (and keep the other specs uniform)?
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Old 07-05-2009, 04:09 PM   #24
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Hvaing the body in the style of a Xiphos, Warrior Kelly, Rhoads, V or any other "aggressive" shape would be a complete turn off for me.
How about the HS? You open to inline or reverse? For me, a superstrat with a rev HS is miles cooler than a 4x4.
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Old 07-05-2009, 04:12 PM   #25
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You're gonna hate me for this, but I'm much more of a traditional headstock guy.

I always found reverse headstocks to look "wrong" and be far less functional (the "hair getting caught in the tuning machines" argument is irrelevant, as I'm nearly bald ). Having said that, I don't think that I'd let a reverse headstock turn me off completely. It would just be a minor gripe.
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