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Old 01-03-2008, 10:53 AM   #1
bigheadood
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Bush, Gore, and Genocide.

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In order to begin figuring out what the real agenda is, behind Gore-like policies, let’s look first at one example: biofuels. Producing biofuels does give us another energy source, but it also removes land from food production. As a consequence of the already-existing biofuels market, market prices for grain and other potential biofuels are now being driven by energy prices. Global food prices are therefore rising rapidly, while at the same time food-production acreage is being reduced. These two things will directly and drastically increase world hunger and starvation, particularly in the poorest regions. A Gore-inspired administration will be promoting an expansion of biofuel programs on a global scale, and it will be patting itself on the back for its noble oil-saving deeds.
Very cynical history lesson, mixed with communist dogma. But its an interesting read. Full article Here
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Old 01-03-2008, 11:32 AM   #2
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Interesting. It's funny how some politicians like Gore will be glorified for energy resource when they are completly ignoring pressing issues like povery, famine, and oppression.

But instead, they are trying to make to world last longer so more and more hatred can occur, and to leave those already helpless to die slow and painfully to disease or hunger.

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Old 01-03-2008, 11:47 AM   #3
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Oh, give me a ....ing break. Do you know how much produce we destroy in this country? It's called farm subsidies. the US government promises a minimum price on a crop, which is higher than the open market. So, large factory farms sell to the government, who destroy the crop, and we import produce from other countries at inflated rates.

If we actually made the large factory farms compete in the open market, and didn't have enough food to go around, then maybe I could see the point to this argument. However, we have people going hungry while we waste food.
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Old 01-03-2008, 11:58 AM   #4
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Yeah, I saw "News You Won't Find On CNN" at the top of the page and decided to not even read it.
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Old 01-03-2008, 12:02 PM   #5
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Yeah, I saw "News You Won't Find On CNN" at the top of the page and decided to not even read it.
Oh, I have big problems with CNN, too. They're just as slanted as every other major news outlet in this country. However, I certainly am not trusting anything from that bull.... Information Clearing House.
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Old 01-03-2008, 12:13 PM   #6
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I certainly won't defend the Anti-Establishment granola-farting fruit bats on information clearing house. I just thought it was interesting. I'm not trying to make anyone angry, just informed about what the 'extremists' are thinking.
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Old 01-03-2008, 12:24 PM   #7
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Sorry, didn't mean to give you the impression that I was angry. Debate tends to get pretty lively in P&CE, but it's all in the spirit of discussion. One of the other mods or myself would--and do--step in on the occassion that someone gets out of line.
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Old 01-03-2008, 12:29 PM   #8
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The push for biofuel made from corn is getting a big push by lobbyists. there are more efficient plants to make fuel from but they lack the profitability to folks like ADM. Those corporate farms should produce these plants, even if they are subsidized.

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Old 01-03-2008, 12:31 PM   #9
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Oh, I have big problems with CNN, too. They're just as slanted as every other major news outlet in this country. However, I certainly am not trusting anything from that bull.... Information Clearing House.
I'm not saying I trust CNN or anything. It's just that that was a pretty big sign to me this was a bull.... source.
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Old 01-03-2008, 12:37 PM   #10
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Very cynical history lesson, mixed with communist dogma. But its an interesting read. Full article Here
That's really only a SMALL part of the picture.

Even most of the "Gore-like Politicians" think corn-based biofuel is a two-edged sword, largely because as you point out it's a valid food source. However, as noodles points out, biofuel is the last thing we need to worry about here since corn farming is so heavily subsidized to protect prices (little fuzzy here, but my recollection is the US gov't basically buys and destroys any excess corn to keep market prices artificially high), and if you really want to go down that road, it's worth noting that it takes something like 18 pounds of corn to produce one pound of beef, so if we REALLY wanted to end world hunger, we should all switch to a vegetarian diet, so we can increase food production 18 fold.

Of course, the article presupposes corn is the only way to make biofuel. Last I heard, a canadian company had found a more energy-efficient, higher yielding way to do it from waste wood left over from the lumber industry.

I don't know if these guys actually believe this or have been bought out by the GOP and Big Oil, but this is a VERY biased look at a much more complex picture.

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Old 01-03-2008, 01:30 PM   #11
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Article is painfully retarded.

Whether it's laughable or irrational, this is the path that ALL great men walk!
If there's a wall in our way, we'll destroy it!
If there's no road, we'll pave it with our own hands!
The magma in our hearts is blazing like flames!
Who the hell do you think we are?
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Old 01-03-2008, 01:46 PM   #12
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Article is painfully retarded.
+1
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Old 01-03-2008, 02:57 PM   #13
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The push for biofuel made from corn is getting a big push by lobbyists. there are more efficient plants to make fuel from but they lack the profitability to folks like ADM. Those corporate farms should produce these plants, even if they are subsidized.


Switchgrass grows readily, is easily cultivated and harvested, and makes a far more efficient fuel source. Corn is actually one of the most inefficient plants to make biofuels out of. Meanwhile, switchgrass can be grown in all the places that are currently unsuitable for pasture land.

Of course, our government doesn't actually want to solve the problem. They want to make the oil companies money, which is why the keep going the corn route. Eventually, there will be the throwing up of hands and exclamations of, "ethanol doesn't work, see, we tried."
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Old 01-03-2008, 03:01 PM   #14
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it's worth noting that it takes something like 18 pounds of corn to produce one pound of beef, so if we REALLY wanted to end world hunger, we should all switch to a vegetarian diet, so we can increase food production 18 fold.
i think i'm gonna put that on a t-shirt. thanks

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Switchgrass grows readily, is easily cultivated and harvested, and makes a far more efficient fuel source. Corn is actually one of the most inefficient plants to make biofuels out of. Meanwhile, switchgrass can be grown in all the places that are currently unsuitable for pasture land.

Of course, our government doesn't actually want to solve the problem. They want to make the oil companies money, which is why the keep going the corn route. Eventually, there will be the throwing up of hands and exclamations of, "ethanol doesn't work, see, we tried."
this is a really distressing subject to read about because everything you've just stated is completely true. I feel like i need to start taking more initiative as an individual to make a difference, but i don't know where to start.

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Last edited by shadowgenesis; 01-03-2008 at 03:03 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 01-03-2008, 06:06 PM   #15
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Switchgrass! that's the stuff I read about! Screwit! Let's start growing our own!

If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?



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Old 01-04-2008, 10:37 AM   #17
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Don't get me wrong, shadowgenesis, I'm not going to quit eating beef anytime soon, but that's the one legitimate argument for a vegetarian lifestyle I've ever heard.

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Old 01-04-2008, 12:36 PM   #18
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I may listen to that argument when we have 11 or 12 billion people. As it stands, we have the potential for a huge food surplus.

Whether it's laughable or irrational, this is the path that ALL great men walk!
If there's a wall in our way, we'll destroy it!
If there's no road, we'll pave it with our own hands!
The magma in our hearts is blazing like flames!
Who the hell do you think we are?
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Old 01-04-2008, 03:35 PM   #19
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as if adequate food production in the world isnt happening for any other reason than money? glah.

and as if adequate fuel production was any different.

/depressed.

something that is true in that article is "the world is sitting on the brink of a major food crisis".

this is of course because no one has yet found a way to make copious amounts of $$$ from feeding africa.

Eat ..... Billions of flies can't be wrong.
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Old 01-04-2008, 03:49 PM   #20
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^ You hit the nail on the head. We don't look at human problems that we should act as a race to fix. We look at monetary problems and how we will afford to fix things, when the concept of money is completely fabricated.
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Old 01-04-2008, 11:36 PM   #21
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Oh, give me a ....ing break. Do you know how much produce we destroy in this country? It's called farm subsidies. the US government promises a minimum price on a crop, which is higher than the open market. So, large factory farms sell to the government, who destroy the crop, and we import produce from other countries at inflated rates.

If we actually made the large factory farms compete in the open market, and didn't have enough food to go around, then maybe I could see the point to this argument. However, we have people going hungry while we waste food.
Exactly why I can't stand people talking about the need to produce more biofuels.

Well, that, and the whole net-energy-loss thing.

Jeff
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Old 01-05-2008, 12:56 AM   #22
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Exactly why I can't stand people talking about the need to produce more biofuels.

Well, that, and the whole net-energy-loss thing.

Jeff
A point that folks just seem to gloss over!

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Old 01-05-2008, 05:42 AM   #23
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I like how the only viable fuel option which would actually make a difference to both our economy and our environment has been somewhat pushed aside for bio-fuels.

Why aren't we taking steps to change our whole infrastructure to hydrogen? I mean, we can build a multi-billion dollar war machine, so we've clearly the industrial capacity to retro-fit our entire country in probably 20 or so years. Why are we even talking about rendering corn and other bio-fuels which are wholly inefficient as far as the amount of energy output they are capable of generating.

Why the hell are we even talking about using corn for fuel? Sounds like some socially regressive conservatives are at the helm again... o .......... they are.....

For some reason too, New Englanders, (more notably in Mass) are against oceanic windfarms. Why, you ask? Because it would ruin the views of the richy white bred ....s off the coast of the cape. Who cares? Have you listened to what any of the scientific experts have said? You're not going to have any beachfront property in 40 years. Hope you packed your snow shoes too, and have some strong legs.

Noodles, don't even get me started on farm subsidies, it's just another gleaming reason why this country, for some reason, can't un.... itself....

If people remember, this country became the industrial power and economic titan after WWII because of our sense of country and unity. Now we sell our soul for the best bottom line, and look what it's doing to our economy. We're off playing imperialists again, think we learned a lesson from history? Nope. So that's not helping either. If we keep heading down this road, we're going to be a service based economy and as we continue to outsource the line between the haves and have nots is only going to get further and further away....But maybe that's what the righteous upper echelons want... cuz who cares about the future or people or anything else... the ....ing bottom line is what counts!

/rant.

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Old 01-05-2008, 03:46 PM   #24
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Oh, balls...

The methods of producing hydrogen aren't all that great, either. Right now they, too, have a net energy loss. Nobody seems to make mention of ....ING BATTERIES, although we trust them with a gigantic proportion of our everyday power needs and they'll routinely get 90-95% efficiency carrying energy harvested FROM ANY SOURCE.

I don't think we became an industrial power and economic titan out of a sense of country and unity... but that's another discussion.

Jeff
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Old 01-05-2008, 08:20 PM   #25
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Oh, balls...

The methods of producing hydrogen aren't all that great, either. Right now they, too, have a net energy loss. Nobody seems to make mention of ....ING BATTERIES, although we trust them with a gigantic proportion of our everyday power needs and they'll routinely get 90-95% efficiency carrying energy harvested FROM ANY SOURCE.

I don't think we became an industrial power and economic titan out of a sense of country and unity... but that's another discussion.

Jeff
well a hydrogen refinery fueled by hyrdonic and wind-farm power wouldn't be all that bad, now would it....

and yeah, batteries wouldn't be bad, but the power output is kind of ....ty right now. What would America be without the ground freight infrastructure.

okay, okay... we became an industrial titan killing nazi's and playing imperialists. I don't want to be a total doom profit. But the spirits back then were high man, they were high!

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