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Old 10-14-2007, 10:03 AM   #1
cvinos
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A 6 for low tuning

Hi, I am currently looking for a six string guitar that is perfect or even built for a low tuning.
I know I could as well look for a seven, but in this case I do not need a vast treble range,
I'd rather use the lower and middle octaves only. And since I am used to a six string and
enjoy the comfort, I am looking for one.

I already read about the Ibanez MTM1, but for the price you pay here in Germany it is just
too eye-catching to me. I also prefer passive pickups. It is probably a very good guitar though,
I will try it when I see one.

Then I played the Ibanez MMM1, a fine instrument with an excellent tonal definition for sure
due to its baritone scale. However I wonder about the pickups, it seems to me they offer
more of a crunchy tone and it is difficult to get a dense distortion which I need as well.
Yet tonal definition is a huge plus to me.

The tuning should be something between C F A# D# G# C and A D G C F A
(standard tuning lowered) or one of these dropped.

If you know a six string that performs really well in a low tuning, please let me know.

I will appreciate any help, hints for guitars and discussion of criteria! Thanks!
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Old 10-14-2007, 10:07 AM   #2
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if your tuning that low youd probably benifit from a baritone. ESP ltd do baritone scale 6 strings fernandes offer a couple as well caparison also do a range of guitars called HGS (high guage strings) where the bridge is a bit further back so you dont have a baritone scale but you do have a bit of extra tension.

when you say massive pickups what do u mean?

The MTM is a great guitar and EMGs that are in it are pretty much 'indursty standard' for low tuned guitars
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Old 10-14-2007, 10:18 AM   #3
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Thanks you, I am going to look at these guitars.

I prefer passive pickups because of the clean sound. The thing is the music
is gonna be pretty much metal, but also clean passages with jazz and
spherical chording occur. That kind of combination.

I once tried the ESP SC-607B, a seven of course, and noticed the
clean sound of the EMGs is really sterile. On the other hand it is good
if you want to form it yourself with effects I guess, I would do that,
but if I can find a guitar that does the job with passive pickups it'd be
good to me.

If I find a guitar that is perfect in the other criteria
but uses active pickups, I may just buy it though.
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Old 10-14-2007, 10:58 AM   #4
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Just get the MMM1 and swap out the pickups, they're muddy as hell...

Up the shut ...., you must.
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Old 10-14-2007, 12:11 PM   #5
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Just get the MMM1 and swap out the pickups, they're muddy as hell...


Alternately, you could try a RG470XL..?
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Old 10-14-2007, 12:26 PM   #6
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Honestly man, there's probably 50 six string guitars I could list that sound awesome in C standard or lower tuning. It most certainly doesn't need to be a baritone. I've tuned that way with 24.75 or 25.5 countless times and its perfect. Most guitarists who tune that low use standard scale 6'ers also.

It really depends on what your budget is. If you could tell me how much you wanted to spend I could certainly give you a more detailed response.

Just off the top of my head: pretty much any decent ESP (600 series or above optimally, top notch), The Schecter Hellraiser sounds absolutely awesome in C or B or Drop Bb in my personal experience (that guitar ....ing smokes too, GREAT value). Parker Fly USA guitars. You could check out that Fender Jim Root model too. I mean could go on forever, just something thats high quality and with good pickups.

As for baritones, I thought the ESP VB400 was nice for the price, though the RG470XL and Mike Mushok model were pure garbage. Again, just tell us you're budget and we can help further. Just keep the point in mind that any nice guitar can handle low tunings well regardless of tuning, assuming it has the right pickups and is being played through the right amp.
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Old 10-14-2007, 12:27 PM   #7
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If you're just going down to C or A, any 25.5" scale guitar should work, especially for C.

Schecter makes one or two 26.5" scale 6-strings. If you want a baritone scale for those tunings, a lighter baritone scale would probably be the way to go unless you just want to use really thin strings.

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Old 10-14-2007, 12:30 PM   #8
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Ibanez MMM1, MTM1 are both meant for low tunings. Also ESP LTD ViperB400 and MHB400 are baritone scaled monsters, great for down tuned strings!

YDG!?
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Old 10-14-2007, 12:30 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomAwesome View Post
If you're just going down to C or A, any 25.5" scale guitar should work, especially for C.

Schecter makes one or two 26.5" scale 6-strings. If you want a baritone scale for those tunings, a lighter baritone scale would probably be the way to go unless you just want to use really thin strings.
The scale isn't a big deal. A ton of awesome guitarists with awesome tone tune down to C or lower with 24.75 scale guitars even. If the guitar is high quality, and the setup/rig is right, anything can work. That said I prefer 25.5 too, but I've had probably 10 short scale 6'ers over the years tuned to C, B or even A and it worked perfectly each time - just need the right strings and pickups.

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Ibanez MMM1, MTM1 are both meant for low tunings. Also ESP LTD ViperB400 and MHB400 are baritone scaled monsters, great for down tuned strings!
No, the MTM1 is 25.5. There's nothing about it that makes it geared towards lower tunings, it just happens to come tuned lower by the factory. Doesn't mean anything.
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Old 10-14-2007, 12:45 PM   #10
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I would go with a schecter 006 of some sort. the 006 elite is ....ing killer.

http://www.schecterguitars.com/spec.asp?id=57

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Old 10-14-2007, 02:22 PM   #11
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Thanks to all!

So, I am looking for a serious guitar for life. The budget is about 1400 Euro,
say about 2000 USD, that kind of thing. If there is a really perfect one that
costs more than that, I may spend some more.

As for the scale, I have some experience with extended scales,
and really like the tonal definition in such guitars.

So having read your replies, I will keep in mind that standard scale does work.
Although for the tuning, I have to say that it is much more likely
that I am gonna use standard A rather than C.

I like standard 10-46 regular strings or 11-49 or 11-52.
Not larger than that, if it is not necessary.

Considering much lower tunings than standard C and my string
preference now, extended scale may even become necessary?
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Old 10-14-2007, 02:59 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cvinos View Post
Thanks to all!

So, I am looking for a serious guitar for life. The budget is about 1400 Euro,
say about 2000 USD, that kind of thing. If there is a really perfect one that
costs more than that, I may spend some more.

As for the scale, I have some experience with extended scales,
and really like the tonal definition in such guitars.

So having read your replies, I will keep in mind that standard scale does work.
Although for the tuning, I have to say that it is much more likely
that I am gonna use standard A rather than C.

I like standard 10-46 regular strings or 11-49 or 11-52.
Not larger than that, if it is not necessary.

Considering much lower tunings than standard C and my string
preference now, extended scale may even become necessary?
Yes, you need at least 30" for standard A with that string gauge, your only choice then is a bc rich, and I would not recommend that to anybody.
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Old 10-14-2007, 03:07 PM   #13
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Opps, well my maximum in scale would be 28". So bigger strings. Just how thick would they have to be?

By the way, I prefer neck-through, but does not have to be. And fixed bridge.
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Old 10-14-2007, 03:46 PM   #14
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Esp make neck through baritones 27''
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Old 10-14-2007, 04:55 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cvinos View Post
Opps, well my maximum in scale would be 28". So bigger strings. Just how thick would they have to be?

By the way, I prefer neck-through, but does not have to be. And fixed bridge.
If your budget is $2000 USD then that changes everything. Don't bother with Schecters or Ibanez or anything cheap. I'd get a tricked out Carvin custom shop guitar - probably the CT6 PRS-ish model, with any specs you'd want. Those are some of the nicest guitars in the world.

If not that, check out the ESP Horizon NT-II model. I owned that, is one of the nicest 6-strings I've ever played. It has an ebony board (key to low tuning clarity IMO), neck-thru, mahogany body, maple neck, 25.5 scale, sperzel locking tuners, just a world class guitar for only about $1300 USD.

As for strings, ignore the whole "you need a 30" scale" nonsense. You can use 11's for C no problem. If you're tuning to standard A, I'd recommend 13's. Perhaps get a custom set thats like 13-17-26-36-46 and then either a 56, 58, 60 or 62 - whatever you want. I believe D'Addario makes a set thats 13-62 which might be fine. Personally when I had the ESP, I tuned C standard w/ Elixir 11's and it played and sounded great. For B I'd use 12's.
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Old 10-14-2007, 05:19 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by zimbloth View Post
If your budget is $2000 USD then that changes everything. Don't bother with Schecters or Ibanez or anything cheap. I'd get a tricked out Carvin custom shop guitar - probably the CT6 PRS-ish model, with any specs you'd want. Those are some of the nicest guitars in the world.
I would not call schecter cheap. Everybody knows that carvins are pricey and I believe that the 006 elite is just as good or better then most carvin, IMO. But we also know that the taste differs very much between carvins and schecter.


Quote:
As for strings, ignore the whole "you need a 30" scale" nonsense. You can use 11's for C no problem. If you're tuning to standard A, I'd recommend 13's. Perhaps get a custom set thats like 13-17-26-36-46 and then either a 56, 58, 60 or 62 - whatever you want. I believe D'Addario makes a set thats 13-62 which might be fine. Personally when I had the ESP, I tuned C standard w/ Elixir 11's and it played and sounded great. For B I'd use 12's.
As I read it he said that he wanted to tune to A with 11-52 and yes you do need 30" scale to do that. I don't know how sloppy you like your strings but most people like them to be at least a little tight.
I tune to B on a 64 so I think 60 Would do for an A. I do agree that 13-60 would be good enough on or 27".

I really don't appreciate your attitude in the post you did. I don't know If you wrote it in bustle or if I offended you in anyway, but please consider using a bit more friendly tone the next time.
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Old 10-14-2007, 05:40 PM   #17
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If you're going to mainly stay in the area of A with those gauges, yeah, a baritone scale makes more sense. Sorry, Desecrated, but you do not need a 30" scale to accomplish that unless you really feel you need really tight strings. A 52 tuned to A on a 27" scale will work fine if you like light strings. A 28" scale might work better if you want a little extra tension, but as a lot of people here know, Dino Cazares gets great results with his 52 tuned to A on a 27" scale. Not that the fact that it works for him means it will work for everybody, as he has a light handed style, but it's a good example that shows it'll work fine.

Edit: Also, aside from the .... pickup, I rather enjoy my 30" Bich

"Tom, you're like 1 part a serious dork, and 2 parts the most awesome ....ing guy ever." -
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Old 10-14-2007, 06:25 PM   #18
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yeah 52. on a 27'' scale will be more than adequate for a low A.

To be honest you can tune a 52 to A on a 25.5'' scale and its still playable, far from ideal but playable.

I tuned to Drop A on my ESP a while ago and i used a 58 and it was perfect for me. I understand that people like a bright sound and some tension on the low strings but for a B anything above 58 is total overkill for me.
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Old 10-14-2007, 06:50 PM   #19
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I'm not much of a drop tuning player, but i had the chance to play a guitar with these pickups, and sweet Jesus, they rule. Lace Music Products | Since 1979 | Electrick Pickups Throw these in a baritone and have fun!
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Old 10-14-2007, 06:54 PM   #20
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I'm not much of a drop tuning player, but i had the chance to play a guitar with these pickups, and sweet Jesus, they rule. Lace Music Products | Since 1979 | Electrick Pickups Throw these in a baritone and have fun!
Interesting. I love their stacked humbuckers in Strat-type guitars (I want to get a G&L with a red/blue/silver combo), but I had no idea they made a pickup like that.

"Tom, you're like 1 part a serious dork, and 2 parts the most awesome ....ing guy ever." -
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Old 10-15-2007, 12:42 AM   #21
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I would not call schecter cheap. Everybody knows that carvins are pricey and I believe that the 006 elite is just as good or better then most carvin, IMO. But we also know that the taste differs very much between carvins and schecter.
Welp, there goes your credibility. I don't even know how to respond to that. Just purely silly. I like Schecters but there is NO COMPARISON to a Carvin. There's no debate. It's not even a fair fight. Even Schecter wouldn't argue that. It's a mass produced guitar thats nice for the price but generally fairly mediocre, compared to a custom shop guitar using the best materials in the world. The build quality on the Carvin is just exponentially better. I have serious doubts you've ever owned a Carvin guitar.

Also they're not pricey at all, what the hell are you talking about? They can be had for under $1000 USD NEW - and that includes stock features like neck-thru, ebony board, premium woods, sperzel locking tuners, etc. He said his budget was $2000 USD, why would he buy a $400 Schecter? They're nice for the price but they do not compare.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desecrated View Post

As I read it he said that he wanted to tune to A with 11-52 and yes you do need 30" scale to do that.
What someone needs is up to them. Some people are fine with light gauges. That's up for him to decide. There's no rule regarding strings.

I'm sorry if you don't like my attitude, I have nothing personal against you but I have an obligation to Sevenstring.org to protect innocent civilians from misinformation
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Old 10-15-2007, 12:46 AM   #22
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*Sigh* Let's can the self-righteous, aggrieved tone, ok people? It's an internet forum, for crying out loud.


FTR, Zimbloth is correct.

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Old 10-15-2007, 01:09 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zimbloth View Post
If your budget is $2000 USD then that changes everything. Don't bother with Schecters or Ibanez or anything cheap. I'd get a tricked out Carvin custom shop guitar - probably the CT6 PRS-ish model, with any specs you'd want. Those are some of the nicest guitars in the world.

If not that, check out the ESP Horizon NT-II model. I owned that, is one of the nicest 6-strings I've ever played. It has an ebony board (key to low tuning clarity IMO), neck-thru, mahogany body, maple neck, 25.5 scale, sperzel locking tuners, just a world class guitar for only about $1300 USD.

As for strings, ignore the whole "you need a 30" scale" nonsense. You can use 11's for C no problem. If you're tuning to standard A, I'd recommend 13's. Perhaps get a custom set thats like 13-17-26-36-46 and then either a 56, 58, 60 or 62 - whatever you want. I believe D'Addario makes a set thats 13-62 which might be fine. Personally when I had the ESP, I tuned C standard w/ Elixir 11's and it played and sounded great. For B I'd use 12's.
Listen to this man. He knows his .... and has played enough guitars to not just be a "Guitar World" reading wannabe.
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Old 10-15-2007, 05:15 AM   #24
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Sometimes a good argument can be helpful. It is usual that with so many people and guitar players in the world some have different opinions. So thanks to all of you again.

Now just for the sake of argument, I have to say that I still bother with factory guitars in spite the possibility of spending as much as 2000 USD. This price also comes into play since guitars in general cost more in Germany, unless they are made here, than in the US. So for this sum I do not get as much guitar as in the US in general. Anyhow, so let's say I wanted to spend about 1000 to 1500 USD, what then? Let's continue considering some guitars and set-ups :-) The thread has been really helpful so far to me.
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Old 10-15-2007, 05:25 AM   #25
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Now just for the sake of argument, I have to say that I still bother with factory guitars in spite the possibility of spending as much as 2000 USD. This price also comes into play since guitars in general cost more in Germany, unless they are made here, than in the US. So for this sum I do not get as much guitar as in the US in general. Anyhow, so let's say I wanted to spend about 1000 to 1500 USD, what then? Let's continue considering some guitars and set-ups :-) The thread has been really helpful so far to me.
The ESP I mentioned isn't 2000 USD, it's $1300 USD. I really think thats the best production model 6-string guitar you can get (new) for that price - apart from a Carvin.
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