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Old 04-02-2007, 01:35 PM   #1
Drew
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Supreme Court rules "greenhouse gases" are air pollutants

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070402...iceenvironment

This one comes as a huge blow to the Bush Administration, who have argued from day one that the EPA has no authority to regulate greenhouse gases, and a huge victory for environmentalist groups, who have been pushing for federally mandated caps (like on most other air pollutants) for years now.

Whether or not the EPA will actually act on this now is a different story, but it's an important first step.


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Old 04-02-2007, 01:58 PM   #2
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Now let's see how much .... the lobbyists throw around to try and stall any real progress with this. You just know Bush and Co. are not going to just play along with this verdict. I'm glad to see this ruling as pollution benfits no one other than the few rich bastards who make money off of not giving a .... about the environment, but I know it will be difficult to get real progress.
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Old 04-02-2007, 02:29 PM   #3
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That's one more for the good guys!

Interesting to see, the decision was 5-4, and who were the dissenters? The usual suspects. Thomas, Scalia, Alito, and ... Roberts. I know, I shouldn't, but I had hopes for him, why I don't know for sure. At least he got to write the dissenting opinion, and it was based largely on legal rigamarole, specifically avoiding directly addressing the issue of 'global warming'. So, you could almost look at that as a deferment, a subtle victory of sorts in the heart of the conservative bastion - see, he left the door open (wisely), for future interpretations regarding the science of GW. He argued from a basic conservative tenet, but he didn't try to make it a political statement regarding the larger issue of GW, like say, Alito or Scalia () would.


As an interesting aside, many companies are now realizing what a wonderful market sustainable resource technologies represent. The smart, forward-thinking companies are really getting on board with this, and just this year, a bunch of leading CEOs came out and addressed the need to deal with GW. I liken the polluting holdouts (CheneyCo) to the US auto industry - stuck in an outdated business model of huge horsepower, gas-guzzling vehicles, when the current economic climate doesn't support that. It supports smaller, more fuel-efficient cars. So, the US auto industry suffers record losses, and the foreign competitors, who've had to face tougher emissions regulations for years handily take the lead.

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Old 04-02-2007, 02:56 PM   #4
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Considering how William Renquest worked out, Bob, I was optimistic too (ironically, I'm reading Hunter S. Thompson's "Fear and Loathing on the Campaign, '72" at the moment, and he sees a sucessful Renquest appointment as one of the worst results of a Nixon re-election). However... :/

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Old 04-02-2007, 02:58 PM   #5
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to be honost its probably too late no matter what anyone does at this point

Confront and Destroy!
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Old 04-02-2007, 03:01 PM   #6
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to be honost its probably too late no matter what anyone does at this point
Well... "too late" is a relative term.

Too late to stop warming, loss of habitat, sea ice, and increasing desertification? Probably. But too late to minimize the potential hardships? Nope.

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Old 04-02-2007, 03:10 PM   #7
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to be honost its probably too late no matter what anyone does at this point
As Gore points out in "An Inconvenient Truth," that's what was said about the hole in the ozone layer, yet we've actually more or less fixed that one.

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Old 04-02-2007, 03:39 PM   #8
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to be honost its probably too late no matter what anyone does at this point
I certainly sympathize with your cynicism, but I think strong action could be enough to turn complete catastrophe into merely a disaster instead.

http://www.turnuptheheat.org/
George Mombiot has an excellent book called 'Heat' in which he crunches the numbers for what needs to be done.
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Old 04-02-2007, 09:14 PM   #9
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About ....ing time. This "do nothing" approach needs to come to an end. I think this is going to become a prototype for future rulings by the high court: five rational adults making informed decisions, and four dead weights who tow the conservative ideology. It is sad how much damage Bush was able to do to the high court with his appointments.

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But the Bush administration backed by nine states and several auto manufacturers urged the court not to intervene, arguing that if the situation was so dire it could not be solved by a simple legal decision.
I will never stop being surprised at the Bush administration's ability to make absolutely baffling statements that seem to run counter to their stance, while doing nothing about it. I read that sentence five times, and it still makes absolutely no sense.

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to be honest its probably too late no matter what anyone does at this point
Obviously, that sentence made perfect sense to you.

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Old 04-02-2007, 09:28 PM   #10
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I guess this a good thing. It just sucks, cause i feel there'll be no significant change unless something irreversible & catastrophic happens :/
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Old 04-02-2007, 09:38 PM   #11
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Give it a year and a half. This president won't do anything about it, but a decision like this will make it an election year issue.

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Old 04-03-2007, 02:04 AM   #12
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As Gore points out in "An Inconvenient Truth," that's what was said about the hole in the ozone layer, yet we've actually more or less fixed that one.
also, eliminating .... like this kinda helped too:




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Old 04-03-2007, 09:51 AM   #13
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also, eliminating .... like this kinda helped too:




I keed, I keed... I was actually a Stryper fan back in the day.
ha ... the hidden truth comes out ... "hair metal goes out of fashion ... ozone saved!"
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Old 04-03-2007, 09:54 AM   #14
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Just as a side note, did any body catch the Planet Earth series they were running last night (can't remember which channel....Science? Nat'l Geo? Discovery?)?

Some pretty troubling statements made by the camera crews about the impact they've seen on the animal species across the globe. I'll admit that at least some of this is apt to be propaganda from a tree-hugger-liberal bias but I subscribe to the better safe than sorry side of the arguement.

If we take action and the Neo-Cons were right. No big deal, we might have lost some GDP for a bit. If however, as I suspect, the Neo-Cons are wrong and we don't take action we're all so totally screwed!

One of the most troubling things I heard last night; The "American Dream" is placed on a pedestal for the entire world to aspire to. If the entire planet however lived like the average American (I'm sure Canada is included too) it would take 3 planets to sustain the natural resources required.

Awesome series btw.
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Old 04-03-2007, 11:04 AM   #15
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^ I missed most of it unfortunately, I did see that last episode though. It was really imformative.
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Old 04-03-2007, 12:51 PM   #16
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That Planet Earth series (it's on Discovery, BTW ) is totally ....ing awesome. I've seen every one.

"Tree hugger liberal bias." That's rich. Lessee... who's likely to be more informed about environmental issues? Scientists rigorously studying them? Camera-operators and filmmakers in the field? Native peoples who live close to the earth?

Or this guy?


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Old 04-03-2007, 12:57 PM   #17
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"Tree hugger liberal bias." That's rich. Lessee... who's likely to be more informed about environmental issues? Scientists rigorously studying them? Camera-operators and filmmakers in the field? Native peoples who live close to the earth?

Or this guy?

Oh I totally agree! I'm just not so niave as to think the propaganda cards are only played from one side of the table.

As always the truth probably lies somewhere in between (what can I say I'm a centrist ).

As I said in the last post however. Considering the risks of being wrong, why do so many insist that human contribution to GW is a fantasy?
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Old 04-03-2007, 01:23 PM   #18
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As always the truth probably lies somewhere in between (what can I say I'm a centrist ).
I'm tired of this card being played by moderate conservatives who want to sit on the fence. Raw scientific data doesn't have a bias. It does not have a political view. It just is what it is. I don't know how melting ice caps and dwindling species numbers can be construed to have a bias in either direction. It is simple cause/effect, not conservative/liberal.

Cause: Higher levels of carbon-based gases in the atmosphere.
Effect: Rising temperatures across the globe.

If you can place a bias on that, then you can find a way to say 2+2=5 for extremely liberal views of the value of two, which is why we need to take a more conservative value of two, leading to 2+2=3.

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Old 04-03-2007, 01:30 PM   #19
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I'm tired of this card being played by moderate conservatives who want to sit on the fence. Raw scientific data doesn't have a bias. It does not have a political view. It just is what it is. I don't know how melting ice caps and dwindling species numbers can be construed to have a bias in either direction. It is simple cause/effect, not conservative/liberal.

Cause: Higher levels of carbon-based gases in the atmosphere.
Effect: Rising temperatures across the globe.

If you can place a bias on that, then you can find a way to say 2+2=5 for extremely liberal views of the value of two, which is why we need to take a more conservative value of two, leading to 2+2=3.
Quoted for truth.

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Old 04-03-2007, 01:30 PM   #20
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I'm tired of this card being played by moderate conservatives who want to sit on the fence. Raw scientific data doesn't have a bias. It does not have a political view. It just is what it is. I don't know how melting ice caps and dwindling species numbers can be construed to have a bias in either direction. It is simple cause/effect, not conservative/liberal.

Cause: Higher levels of carbon-based gases in the atmosphere.
Effect: Rising temperatures across the globe.

If you can place a bias on that, then you can find a way to say 2+2=5 for extremely liberal views of the value of two, which is why we need to take a more conservative value of two, leading to 2+2=3.
And again for emphasis. Brilliantly said, noodles - this is science, not belief.

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Old 04-03-2007, 01:32 PM   #21
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Again, right as rain, dude.

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Old 04-03-2007, 01:35 PM   #22
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I'm tired of this card being played by moderate conservatives who want to sit on the fence. Raw scientific data doesn't have a bias. It does not have a political view. It just is what it is. I don't know how melting ice caps and dwindling species numbers can be construed to have a bias in either direction. It is simple cause/effect, not conservative/liberal.

Cause: Higher levels of carbon-based gases in the atmosphere.
Effect: Rising temperatures across the globe.

If you can place a bias on that, then you can find a way to say 2+2=5 for extremely liberal views of the value of two, which is why we need to take a more conservative values of two, leading to 2+2=3.
And again.
Perfectly said Dave.

I'm not sure which is more sinister: people willfully trying to turn climate change into a political debate instead of a scientific problem, or people having such an ineffective grasp of science that they honestly can't tell the difference between scientific study and political rhetoric.
Each case of the latter is an indictment of our educational system.
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Old 04-03-2007, 01:56 PM   #23
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I'm not sure which is more sinister: people willfully trying to turn climate change into a political debate instead of a scientific problem, or people having such an ineffective grasp of science that they honestly can't tell the difference between scientific study and political rhetoric.
Each case of the latter is an indictment of our educational system.
The "conservative" side of the fence has spent decades building a system that spins science into politicized opinion. (The constant misuse of the word "theory" as it applies to science is a great example of it.) So, no, people think that, say, Creation "Science" has an equal footing with Evolutionary Theory because we've taught a generation to think that opinion and fact are synonymous.

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Old 04-03-2007, 02:10 PM   #24
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And again for emphasis. Brilliantly said, noodles - this is science, not belief.
But the hardcore neo-cons manage to find a small group of scientists who believe otherwise, and go with their opinions.
Otherwords -- the fallacy of selective observation.
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Old 04-03-2007, 02:15 PM   #25
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But the hardcore neo-cons manage to find a small group of scientists who believe otherwise, and go with their opinions.
Otherwords -- the fallacy of selective observation.
Indeed. And how many of those 'scientists' who believe otherwise have been paid to say so. The moment a scientist's work is influenced by money or political agenda it is no longer credible science.
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