Black machine imitation? do or dont - Page 2

darren · 04-03-2009, 01:29 PM

Even though it's derived from the Parker headstock, it's still distinctively Blackmachine.

MF_Kitten · 04-03-2009, 01:44 PM

the blackmachine is like parker had sex with ibanez and gave birth to pure win. i love "cutout" headstocks like that! the one on Bulb's TIL8 comes to mind as well, and also the one on Kissa3's Roter

Stroked · 04-03-2009, 02:46 PM

This guy can spend his money anyway he likes. The Blackmachine is in reality nothing more than a thin RG with a Parker-ish head stock. Blackmachine has NOT created something completely new.
NO matter what it is a guitar with a srat shape......how many freaking RG 7 clones have we seen on this site and everyone goes crazy for them? Where was this issue then?

And as far as a builder only building something new as Darren said, how would you make money? Just how origional can you even be without being completely disgusting? Your customer is coming to you probably because he has been influenced by 3 or 4 other guitars and wants to mold them all together.
Saying you would only build one offs is like trying to be a mechanic that ONLY builds custom cars.

To the thread starter...BUILD AWAY!!!.....its your money and you should get exactly what you want with it.

sakeido · 04-03-2009, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HAUCH

Meh. I would just save your duckets and get the real thing, buddy. From what I understand, Doug puts a great deal of thought and engineering into the guitars. The shear physics and detail involved with the Blackmachine's is what sets them apart. Its also why Doug doesn't make a bazillion guitars a year/extended waiting list. I think you'd be much happier with the real thing than a copy from Ran or Shamray.

They aren't worth a two year plus wait, nothing is.

All the marketing that surrounds the "blackmachine advantage" is BS. They do sound incredible - unplugged. Plugged in, the difference is incredibly small and I seriously doubt that anyone could pick a blackmachine out from another guitar with Bareknuckles in a blind test. The neck profile on a B7 is exactly the same as the new Jackson COWs, they aren't as light as you would think (weigh more than my SLS3 and COW), they do not stand up to use well since they have no real finish..

Stroked · 04-03-2009, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadyDavey

Imitation might be the most sincere form of flattery but its also guarnateed to bring any hard-working luthier or designer out in a raging fury. Don't get me wrong - Blackmachine's are flooping gorgeous and I'd do anything to get my paws on one but I wouldn't get another builder to copy the design.

If I were another builder, I'd refuse to copy the design even if it lost me work simply because its just not on as far as I'm concerned.

Well then people shouldnt support Jackson ot Ibanez cause it has a strat body....and no one should buy SD Blackouts cause they could be viewed as trying to take away from EMG......And dont buy line 6 stuff cause they try to model the origionals....

darren · 04-03-2009, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stroked

And as far as a builder only building something new as Darren said, how would you make money? Just how origional can you even be without being completely disgusting? Your customer is coming to you probably because he has been influenced by 3 or 4 other guitars and wants to mold them all together.
Saying you would only build one offs is like trying to be a mechanic that ONLY builds custom cars.

I never said he should only be building one-offs. I said he should be making guitars he's designed himself.

Stroked · 04-03-2009, 03:23 PM

[QUOTE=darren;1444647]I never said he should only be building one-offs. I said he should be making guitars he's designed himself.[/QU
Sorry sir...I stand corrected

darren · 04-03-2009, 03:44 PM

You might want to get a few more posts under your belt before you come in here and start throwing your weight around.

hufschmid · 04-03-2009, 03:48 PM

Quote:

And as far as a builder only building something new as Darren said, how would you make money? Just how origional can you even be without being completely disgusting? Your customer is coming to you probably because he has been influenced by 3 or 4 other guitars and wants to mold them all together.
Saying you would only build one offs is like trying to be a mechanic that ONLY builds custom cars.

I can speak up to this....

I think that its very bad to immitate a guitar from an artisan...

Most companys also copy the design of small independant artisans that they find on the net and then claim that they invented the design because they perfectly know that an artisan would never have the money to go and bring them to court....

As for what I am concerned if somebody would come up to me wanting a blackmachine headstock design I would refuse to build it.

Its just a matter of respecting the work of an other designer which I respect a lots....

possumkiller · 04-03-2009, 04:04 PM

i wanted a prs private stock. well honestly i just wanted a really nice looking presque singlecut that i knew i could only get from private stock if i wanted a real prs. i got a private stock quote and changed my mind. so i specd it up with mike at shamray and i liked the price a LOT better. so shamray is building me a prs clone. do i care that its a copy? no. its my money, ill spend it how i want. shamray is in a position as of now to where they can build you damn near anything you want. i thought about doing a "blackmachine" 8 string through them as well as i had no luck in contacting doug. but i wasnt going to copy the BM i was just going to use some of the asthetic elements that i really like about them and apply it to my own v design. anyway, my point is, do i care about ripping off prs, fender, gibson, ibanez, or esp? no not really, they can afford to lose my business to shamray. but i wouldnt do a blatant ripoff of a BM.

Scar Symmetry · 04-03-2009, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darren

You might want to get a few more posts under your belt before you come in here and start throwing your weight around.

+1 to that

the threadstarter asked for advice and it has been given to him.

even ........., a part of the luthier community believes it's a bad move.

E Lucevan Le Stelle · 04-03-2009, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sakeido

They aren't worth a two year plus wait, nothing is.

All the marketing that surrounds the "blackmachine advantage" is BS. They do sound incredible - unplugged. Plugged in, the difference is incredibly small and I seriously doubt that anyone could pick a blackmachine out from another guitar with Bareknuckles in a blind test. The neck profile on a B7 is exactly the same as the new Jackson COWs, they aren't as light as you would think (weigh more than my SLS3 and COW), they do not stand up to use well since they have no real finish..

I'm going to call you out on this one...

As most people here know, I've both owned and played a hell of a lot of top-end custom guitars - besides my Blackmachine - Jackson CS, Ibanez LACS, ESP CS, Parker, Moser CS, KxK, EBMM, Vigier... I had a KxK SII-7 with similar specs to my B7 and an identical pickup configuration, and the two sounded nothing alike. In fact, soundwise - PLUGGED IN - the Blackmachine was way ahead. Despite the KxK's longer scale length, the Blackmachine still sounded more defined and aggressive on the low strings. The difference was definitely enough I'd be able to tell which was which blind, same with my other guitars.

The finish I'd say might be a concern as it would show damage more, but guitars are there to be played...

As for 2 year waits, both Jackson and ESP custom shops have 18 month wait times, and a lot of other custom shops are a year or more... I guess here we have a luxury in a lot of smaller places which haven't been as massively noticed yet.

On the main point of the thread - doing an imitation of another luthier's design is shitty etiquette and not something most luthiers would sign up to. A standard guitar like a Strat, Les Paul, PRS-ish single or double cut or RG/generic superstrat... sure. Someone with very specific construction techniques and a very identifiable design... nothx.

Stroked · 04-03-2009, 04:51 PM

Throw my weight around?....lol.
I am not even going to have this turn into some little internet warrior showdown.
My post count reflects NOTHING about my abilities on the guitar, and has NOTHING to do with my opinion.
I delivered my opinion and it is a just one. This guy can build/purchase what ever he wants.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scar Symmetry

+1 to that

the threadstarter asked for advice and it has been given to him.

even ........., a part of the luthier community believes it's a bad move.

Yeah and he was also given my opinion....I really hope you are not implying that my opinion does not count because of a low post count.....if so LOGIC>YOU......And Scar Symmetry is god!

AgentWalrus · 04-03-2009, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darren

You might want to get a few more posts under your belt before you come in here and start throwing your weight around.

haha how cool do you feel with 9000 posts? you must be one fat son of a bitch

Stroked · 04-03-2009, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by .........

I can speak up to this....

I think that its very bad to immitate a guitar from an artisan...

Most companys also copy the design of small independant artisans that they find on the net and then claim that they invented the design because they perfectly know that an artisan would never have the money to go and bring them to court....

As for what I am concerned if somebody would come up to me wanting a blackmachine headstock design I would refuse to build it.

Its just a matter of respecting the work of an other designer which I respect a lots....

Totally understood and agree. Trying to duplicate bm EXACTLY would be wrong.

E Lucevan Le Stelle · 04-03-2009, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AgentWalrus

haha how cool do you feel with 9000 posts? you must be one fat son of a bitch

Ooh, you done said it now...

Scar Symmetry · 04-03-2009, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stroked

Throw my weight around?....lol.
I am not even going to have this turn into some little internet warrior showdown.
My post count reflects NOTHING about my abilities on the guitar, and has NOTHING to do with my opinion.
I delivered my opinion and it is a just one. This guy can build/purchase what ever he wants.

Yeah and he was also given my opinion....I really hope you are not implying that my opinion does not count because of a low post count.....if so LOGIC>YOU......And Scar Symmetry is god!

he mentioned nothing about your ability on guitar. but here is the same as any community, you have to earn your stripes before you can throw your weight around with bold statements. I'm still earning mine, and you'll have to do the same.

possumkiller · 04-03-2009, 05:20 PM

lol too late

7 Strings of Hate · 04-03-2009, 05:54 PM

my ONLY beefs with this thread are that Blackmachine, and a shit ton of other guitar manufacturers have just ripped off the strat body style so much so, that a blackmachine body is REALLY just a rip off of an RG body, which is REALLY just a rip off of a Stratocaster body. So how is that fair excatly. Not to mention, as said earlier, a blackmachine headstock is similar to the parker design.

Over all, IMO, its perfectly acceptable to make strat and prs knock offs, ya see them all the time, same with many of the other body styles and headstocks, so why is it taboo that you do it with a blackmachine?? I suspect that the BM owners that paid exuberant prices(u.s. guys atleast) feel it cheapens the BM aura, but i think is elietist bullshit.

I think its perfectly fine aslong as you dont advertize it as a blackmachine. Strat guys dont care if there are strat knockoffs. Why should BM? Besides, if the BlackMachines are these mystical beasts that everyone who plays them says, then they will speak for them selves and everyone will know BM's are better.

But for the record, for some of you that say that doug is the only one who can do what he does?? Hes a man like all of us, he puts his pants on 1 leg at a time. Wake up and realize that there are tons and tons of small luithers that are JUST as talented AND knowldgable.

Its like everything else. A year ago EVERYONE had to have an Engl Invader because it was just the hot item. Same deal here. Its like Sakeido said, i seriously doubt anyone would beable to tell the differance between a blackmachine and another guitar of similar specs on a recording.

Us guitarists are silly silly placebo fools sometimes.

edit: it sounds like i'm downing BM here after reading this. In truth i would kill my own mama in the street for one because they look so awesome, but thats why, not because of their "hype"

HumanFuseBen · 04-03-2009, 06:04 PM

hmm, seems unethical to me.

7 Strings of Hate · 04-03-2009, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HumanFuseBen

hmm, seems unethical to me.

ehh? Whos cares really though? There isnt much ethics left in business anyway. And the people who have them, usually go poor

toolsound · 04-03-2009, 06:42 PM

The main reason why I don't see a problem with this is due to the waiting list. If blackmachine is backed up to hell and back then what's wrong with another guy saying, "Hey, I can make something similar for you right away" ?

If I was ready to buy a guitar, I wouldn't want to wait X number of months/years either.

hairychris · 04-03-2009, 07:49 PM

Hahaha ....ing bollocks whatever.

Spent the evening palying my snakewood necked Blackmachine B2, PRS Cu24 Rosewood neck Artist Pack (you know, $4k+ street price + Bareknuckles), Schecter C-7 Hellraicer and Agile 8 string.

PRS is a nice guitar but has a very um plasticky feeling even with the very nice neck.

Blackmachine ....ing smokes it. Different p'ups but I'm only playing through my shitty bedroom rig.

Playability? Sorry, played a decent one-off by Doug? No ....ing competition.

Haha, drunk and ....ing metalling it.

badger71 · 04-03-2009, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toolsound

The main reason why I don't see a problem with this is due to the waiting list. If blackmachine is backed up to hell and back then what's wrong with another guy saying, "Hey, I can make something similar for you right away" ?

If I was ready to buy a guitar, I wouldn't want to wait X number of months/years either.

^Business 101 from the mouth of a forumite^ If the demand is great, yet the supply is limited, soon there will be competition to quench that demand....world capitalism at it's finest....ethics be damned.

hairychris · 04-03-2009, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by .........

I can speak up to this....

I think that its very bad to immitate a guitar from an artisan...

Most companys also copy the design of small independant artisans that they find on the net and then claim that they invented the design because they perfectly know that an artisan would never have the money to go and bring them to court....

As for what I am concerned if somebody would come up to me wanting a blackmachine headstock design I would refuse to build it.

Its just a matter of respecting the work of an other designer which I respect a lots....

Yo Patrick!

I swear that one day I'll own one of your guitars. ....ing straight. I just need to sort ythe cash out.

	sevenstring guitars		sevenstring registry		photo gallery		subscription		spy

04-03-2009, 01:29 PM	#26
darren Decibel Guitars Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Greater Toronto Area, Canada Posts: 11,474 Thanked: 75 Feedback Score: 9 reviews	Even though it's derived from the Parker headstock, it's still distinctively Blackmachine. web \| facebook \| twitter

04-03-2009, 01:44 PM	#27
MF_Kitten Fully Ramblomatic Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Stavanger, Norway Posts: 8,978 Thanked: 297 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	the blackmachine is like parker had sex with ibanez and gave birth to pure win. i love "cutout" headstocks like that! the one on Bulb's TIL8 comes to mind as well, and also the one on Kissa3's Roter -------------------------------------- What will metal be doing in ten years? What ever Meshuggah will be doing in two. -Anthony

04-03-2009, 03:44 PM	#33
darren Decibel Guitars Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Greater Toronto Area, Canada Posts: 11,474 Thanked: 75 Feedback Score: 9 reviews	You might want to get a few more posts under your belt before you come in here and start throwing your weight around. web \| facebook \| twitter

04-03-2009, 04:04 PM	#35
possumkiller SS.org Regular Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: no Posts: 1,993 Thanked: 39 Feedback Score: 4 reviews	i wanted a prs private stock. well honestly i just wanted a really nice looking presque singlecut that i knew i could only get from private stock if i wanted a real prs. i got a private stock quote and changed my mind. so i specd it up with mike at shamray and i liked the price a LOT better. so shamray is building me a prs clone. do i care that its a copy? no. its my money, ill spend it how i want. shamray is in a position as of now to where they can build you damn near anything you want. i thought about doing a "blackmachine" 8 string through them as well as i had no luck in contacting doug. but i wasnt going to copy the BM i was just going to use some of the asthetic elements that i really like about them and apply it to my own v design. anyway, my point is, do i care about ripping off prs, fender, gibson, ibanez, or esp? no not really, they can afford to lose my business to shamray. but i wouldnt do a blatant ripoff of a BM. sol niger 333: "I'm guessing a dildo was used. A truth dildo."

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04-03-2009, 02:46 PM	#28
Stroked ss.org Regular Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 97 Thanked: 0 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	This guy can spend his money anyway he likes. The Blackmachine is in reality nothing more than a thin RG with a Parker-ish head stock. Blackmachine has NOT created something completely new. NO matter what it is a guitar with a srat shape......how many freaking RG 7 clones have we seen on this site and everyone goes crazy for them? Where was this issue then? And as far as a builder only building something new as Darren said, how would you make money? Just how origional can you even be without being completely disgusting? Your customer is coming to you probably because he has been influenced by 3 or 4 other guitars and wants to mold them all together. Saying you would only build one offs is like trying to be a mechanic that ONLY builds custom cars. To the thread starter...BUILD AWAY!!!.....its your money and you should get exactly what you want with it.

04-03-2009, 03:23 PM	#32
Stroked ss.org Regular Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 97 Thanked: 0 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	[QUOTE=darren;1444647]I never said he should only be building one-offs. I said he should be making guitars he's designed himself.[/QU Sorry sir...I stand corrected

04-03-2009, 05:20 PM	#43
possumkiller SS.org Regular Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: no Posts: 1,993 Thanked: 39 Feedback Score: 4 reviews	lol too late sol niger 333: "I'm guessing a dildo was used. A truth dildo."

04-03-2009, 05:54 PM	#44
7 Strings of Hate Banned Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: St.Louis USA Posts: 6,769 Thanked: 90 Feedback Score: 23 reviews	my ONLY beefs with this thread are that Blackmachine, and a shit ton of other guitar manufacturers have just ripped off the strat body style so much so, that a blackmachine body is REALLY just a rip off of an RG body, which is REALLY just a rip off of a Stratocaster body. So how is that fair excatly. Not to mention, as said earlier, a blackmachine headstock is similar to the parker design. Over all, IMO, its perfectly acceptable to make strat and prs knock offs, ya see them all the time, same with many of the other body styles and headstocks, so why is it taboo that you do it with a blackmachine?? I suspect that the BM owners that paid exuberant prices(u.s. guys atleast) feel it cheapens the BM aura, but i think is elietist bullshit. I think its perfectly fine aslong as you dont advertize it as a blackmachine. Strat guys dont care if there are strat knockoffs. Why should BM? Besides, if the BlackMachines are these mystical beasts that everyone who plays them says, then they will speak for them selves and everyone will know BM's are better. But for the record, for some of you that say that doug is the only one who can do what he does?? Hes a man like all of us, he puts his pants on 1 leg at a time. Wake up and realize that there are tons and tons of small luithers that are JUST as talented AND knowldgable. Its like everything else. A year ago EVERYONE had to have an Engl Invader because it was just the hot item. Same deal here. Its like Sakeido said, i seriously doubt anyone would beable to tell the differance between a blackmachine and another guitar of similar specs on a recording. Us guitarists are silly silly placebo fools sometimes. edit: it sounds like i'm downing BM here after reading this. In truth i would kill my own mama in the street for one because they look so awesome, but thats why, not because of their "hype" Azathoth43 and Purelojik like this.

04-03-2009, 06:04 PM	#45
HumanFuseBen SS.org Regular Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,819 Thanked: 75 $HumanFuseBen is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $HumanFuseBen is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $HumanFuseBen is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $HumanFuseBen is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $HumanFuseBen is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $HumanFuseBen is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $HumanFuseBen is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ Feedback Score: 6 reviews	hmm, seems unethical to me.

04-03-2009, 06:42 PM	#47
toolsound SS.org Regular Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Seattle Posts: 343 Thanked: 2 Feedback Score: 1 reviews	The main reason why I don't see a problem with this is due to the waiting list. If blackmachine is backed up to hell and back then what's wrong with another guy saying, "Hey, I can make something similar for you right away" ? If I was ready to buy a guitar, I wouldn't want to wait X number of months/years either.

04-03-2009, 07:49 PM	#48
hairychris Hairy Old Bloke Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: London, UK Posts: 2,968 Thanked: 26 Feedback Score: 4 reviews	Hahaha ....ing bollocks whatever. Spent the evening palying my snakewood necked Blackmachine B2, PRS Cu24 Rosewood neck Artist Pack (you know, $4k+ street price + Bareknuckles), Schecter C-7 Hellraicer and Agile 8 string. PRS is a nice guitar but has a very um plasticky feeling even with the very nice neck. Blackmachine ....ing smokes it. Different p'ups but I'm only playing through my shitty bedroom rig. Playability? Sorry, played a decent one-off by Doug? No ....ing competition. Haha, drunk and ....ing metalling it. GADZOOKS AND ODDS BODKINS!!!!! Not a hipster: Blackmachine, Jaden Rose, Paul Reed Smith, Ibanez, Jackson, Boss, Diezel, Marshall, Framus, VHT, Ampeg, Electro Harmonix, Korg, Alesis, MFB, Doepfer.

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