[EverDream]

Hi, I haven't posted in a long time, but something has been bothering me. It seems most people on here (or anywhere for that matter) think that a guitar with a longer scale length will feel tighter due to the increased tension from the longer scale length, but I see a slight overlooked variable in that... Say you have a 25.5" guitar with a .046 string tuned to E and it has roughly 17.6 lbs. of tension.. probably mostly everyone here knows what that feels like. Well... now let's say we make (this is hypothetical and exagerrated to show my point) the scale length 100 inches and tune it to whatever pitch so that the tension is still 17.6 lbs. do you think it's going to feel tighter? maybe the same? or less? Well 17.6 lbs. is fine tension for 25.5" inches but I think at 100 inches it would need to be way tighter so that the string doesn't sag like your grandma's boobs (no offense to anyone, lol). Likewise, if the scale length was only 1 inch, I think 17.6 lbs. would have basically no give at all. Am I wrong? Someone correct me if I'm wrong but to me I feel like I'm making sense here... So given this fact, now we take into account that increasing the length also increases the lbs. of tension. I have used the actual mathematic forumulas of string physics (because in the end it is more acurate than trusting pacificsites string tension applet calculator which gets way more inacurate the further you go away from standard tuning I found out) to calculate the tension gained vs. how floppy it feels, and I've found that the tension gained doesn't offset the 'flop factor' that is also gained from having a longer string speaking length. Therefore.. you actually have to add some more lbs. to the natural increased lbs. by getting thicker gauges in order for it to feel how it did with the standard length setup. That is probably exactly why bass guitar strings have like 30-40 lbs. of tension on average. I did research and discovered all of this when I got my schecter c7 blackjack, and I used the same strings I did on my standard scale length 6 string, only to find that it felt looser and had more give than I would've liked. I thought it was going to be tighter, because that's what everyone here made me think, but it wasn't and now I'm glad I found out why!!! But I want to hear what everyone else thinks about this. Am I making sense? If I am I hope everyone who is misconceived about this see this so that they can see something they might have missed (or been mistaught even!) about how strings physics and scale lengths relate. Ok now I'm waiting for everyone's thoughts.

[7 Dying Trees]

Vibrating string - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

in the equation you can see, that everything apart from string length (L) remaining constant, that a longer L with the same tension and everything else will produce a lower frequency, hence by compensating with either mass or tension (thicker gauge or more tension on the string) you can achieve the same frequency.

Hence by keeping the same gauge strings, to achieve the same frequency, you'll need to increase tension, hence a longer scale length feeling tighter

[metalfiend666]

Firstly, paragraphs are good

Secondly, James is right that (for example) a .46 string tuned to E will have more tension on a 27" scale than a 25.5" scale. However the string is longer and therefore more "bendable". So you're kinda half right that bass strings are so much thicker to account for this.

It's all a balancing act and you'll probably have to try several different combination of gauges to find a set that feels "right" to you.

[7 Dying Trees]

What you are probably thinking off, actually, is that a longer string has more elasticity overall, as there is more metal to bend and stretch.

[EverDream]

Originally Posted by 7 Dying Trees

Hence by keeping the same gauge strings, to achieve the same frequency, you'll need to increase tension, hence a longer scale length feeling tighter

Now that I think about it I think I explained it kind of crazily before... What I meant to say was that 17 lbs. of tension would feel floppier on a longer length instrument. So if you are keeping the tension the same the longer you go the floppier it feels. So you'd have to tune it up (like you were saying) but you'd have to do that just to make it feel not as floppy. True the tension will be higher than the shorter length, but it will 'feel' the same. See I'm trying to say as length increases, more tension is needed to acheive the same 'feel'. So more tension will only be bringing it back to the original feeling of tightness as before! So really the only benefit you are getting is better intonation on lower notes and fatter strings!

[Metal Ken]

Originally Posted by EverDream

Now that I think about it I think I explained it kind of crazily before... What I meant to say was that 17 lbs. of tension would feel floppier on a longer length instrument. So if you are keeping the tension the same the longer you go the floppier it feels. So you'd have to tune it up (like you were saying) but you'd have to do that just to make it feel not as floppy. True the tension will be higher than the shorter length, but it will 'feel' the same. See I'm trying to say as length increases, more tension is needed to acheive the same 'feel'. So more tension will only be bringing it back to the original feeling of tightness as before! So really the only benefit you are getting is better intonation on lower notes and fatter strings!

if it still had 17 lbs of tension on a string, if you lengthen the string and keep the tension constant, your note drops in pitch.
the other advantage is that the same string at a lower pitch has a better clarity ;p

[EverDream]

Originally Posted by 7 Dying Trees

What you are probably thinking off, actually, is that a longer string has more elasticity overall, as there is more metal to bend and stretch.

Right! Thanks, I have a hard time explaining things in simple terms, sometimes I wish I could just explain it simple like that, lol. Yes that's basically what I'm saying. I find I have to add more tension on longer guitars to achieve the same feeling.

And so many times people are saying you can get a longer guitar and it will be tighter in lower tunings without having to get huge strings, but the problem with that is, you DO have to get bigger strings so that it doesn't feel as floppy! (unless you like it floppy, which in case there is no problem!)

If you kept the same strings as your shorter guitar and you put it to the same tension it would be dropped in pitch, but then it'd also feel floppier because it's longer so in that case you'd have to tune to standard... but what people say is "a baritone is good because then you can tune low without having to get bigger strings" you see where that is kinda not true?

They should say "a baritone is good because it accomodates lower tunings better" but saying that you can go low without needing thicker strings is totally wrong!! 17 lbs of tension in a dropped tuning on a baritone isn't going to feel like 17 lbs of tension on E on a shorter guitar unless you get thicker strings. So that's what has been bothering me.

[metalfiend666]

I think you're starting to get it, but I don't understand the obsession with keeping the physical force the same. Having owed a couple of baritone 7's I can assure you that a .46 tuned to E feels much tighter on a 27" scale than on a 25.5", even if it is going to be easier to bend. The increased tension feel outweighs the extra flexibility.

[Metal Ken]

exactly,the extra flexibility wouldnt be noticable very much, if at all. The extra pull on the string would make much more of an impact.

[MF_Kitten]

i like the extra bendability on longer scale instruments, because it´s not ´´floppy´´ in the lack-of-tension way, like if you tuned a .49 set of string all the way down to B, it´s rather like a tight string that´s also alot more flexy, allowing for larger bends, and an all round better feel when soloing on the strings or playing bendy notes...

look at meshuggah, when fredrik thordendahl does his solos on his 30´´ 8 string... he bends those high strings really far, alot more so than you would be able to do on an ordinary scale instrument...

so it´s all about what you´re looking for... i would prefer tight but bendy strings, because they don´t flop around, but vibrate further outwards... i would aalso think this would make the allround sound more powerfull?