Godot has finally arrived. Roter FF7 RC2

[Lethe]

So last thursday I got my Roter FF7 for the second time. Some of you may have read the first thread, long story short there were some problems with the body and neck and Apophis agreed to build a new guitar. Took him about 4 weeks, so I guess building the guitar within the agreed timeframe is possible after all.




Anyway, I wanted to spend some time with it in order to give an unclouded, fair review of the guitar. There is plenty of light, some shadow too. I'll start with the negative, because all in all, I really like this guitar, so I want this review to end on a high note. Alright then, let's get the bad stuff out of the way, the worst first:

FROWNS: (importance descending)

Intonation

Without modifications, the guitar can't be set up to intonate correctly - not with the factory strings, not with a brand new Elixir 10 - 52 + 68 set. On the bass side, I had to move the saddle away from the neck, but the screw ran into the string and I couldn't move it any further. So I sawed off the screw, and when it was 4mm shorter I could get it right, but the saddle will not move any further without filing it (it's complicated to explain). Most of the other saddles (strings A, D, G and B) are almost all the way toward the neck, but on the high E, I needed to use a longer screw to get the intonation right. The 2 little posts of the saddle are hanging over the edge of the saddle baseplate, I'd say about 80% of them is in the air. But it's somewhat stable and the intonation is ok this way. To me, it seems that on my guitar, the overall angle of the bridge is too vertical since I'm on the very edge of adjustment range on either side. Now I have to find a stainless steel screw that fits, right now I only have a zinc-plated one, and you can see that it's different.





String Placement

On the bass side, the string is very close to the edge of the fret. You have to be rather careful not to slide the string off the edge of the fretboard. All my other guitars have at least 2 mm of straight fret before the edge of the neck, here it's barely 1 mm. I had asked Apophis to fix this in the second model, which he assured me would not be a problem. This one is exactly like the first attempt. I guess I'll have to get used to it.





Fretwork

It was mentioned in other reviews, and on my guitar aswell there are some toolmarks on the frets. It looks like they have all been polished over, but the toolmarks are there and you can feel them when bending the string on these frets. To put it in perspective, after 6 months without polishing, regular frets feel a lot worse. Knowing that these stainless steel frets will stay this way, I'm fine with it. All the frets seem aligned properly except for fret 20 on the treble side, but it's minimal, and no, I will not buy a set of calipers to prove anything. I'm fine with it, that's all that matters. All in all, the fretwork is not as good as it could be, but it's good enough for me.





Tuners

These are really bad, below Epiphone or 7321 quality. I have an old Jack&Danny seven string, the tuners feel exactly like that. Some turn very hard, making it difficult to get the right pitch. Also, right now the tuning stability is very poor, but that could be the wood of the neck still settling in (yes, I am familiar with the concept of stretching my strings ). I never swapped the tuners on any of my guitars since I'm always fine with the stock ones, but on this one I will definitely swap them. Still, you have to see it in perspective: Everything on this guitar is rather high-end, so they had to cut costs somewhere. The volume knob is a little scratched. Nevermind.

That concludes my list of frowns with this guitar. Whether these are really bad or just "meh" is up to you. Some will lose their sleep over these things, others won't notice them. Me, I've accepted them.

One small thing that doesn't really count as a frown: The screws used for the belt buttons are very nice, but the heads are too wide to fit Dunlop Straplok buttons. ZOMG refund! Well, I'll just have to hunt down 2 screws that fit.

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Alright, now for the fun part.

SMILES: (importance ascending)

Serial Number

Yeah, it's a small thing, but I have a different serial number now. The first one was 0006 or 0007 I think, now it's 0002. Since this is the second attempt, having that serial number is a little poetic to me. I know, I'm weird.





Balance

I was worried that with such a thin body and a rather long neck, the guitar would be prone to neckdive. Not a trace of that. Thumbs up.

Wood / Woodworking

Stunning. Amazing. Perfect. I like this one a LOT better than the first one. The body has such a nice figure, it's like that wenge tree knew it wanted to be this exact guitar once it's grown up. The grain is almost completely aligned with the neck, it looks like a choco-mocca pinstripe suit. The maple fretboard is very nicely flamed - much more so than the first guitar. The grain on the neck is also very nice. The neck pocket, the neck shape, the headstock, everything is worked very precisely and it's a very rewarding feeling to run your fingers over the guitar. Seriously, I have spent quite some time just holding the guitar and drooling over how amazing it looks and feels.




Sound

As I had hoped, having the single EMG 808 at that angle does not affect the sound at all. The lowest and highest string sound just like the others, even in terms of saturation when I use distortion. I had not heard/tried the 808 before, but I liked the 707 in the past (even though I use blackouts on my other guitars). I must say that I like the 808 a lot, with my gear/settings it has some grind/bark somewhere in the treble that the Blackouts don't have. It's not very pronounced, but I hear it.
Now, the fanned frets: Jesus, what a difference! I mean, I already have a 27" Ibanez, so the piano-like clarity of the low notes was something I was already used to, but the high strings really benefit from the shorter scale length. On my Ibanez, they tend to be edgy or harsh, which to some extent can be fixed through settings. But not having to find a compromise anymore really unlocks the full potential of your tone. I'm not able to hear a difference between SS frets and regular ones, but the wenge & maple sound great. Lots of clarity and volume when the guitar is unplugged - that translates to awesome sustain.


Playability

I love that neck. Very flat, very fast. The higher you go, the more the flat D shape is pronounced, way flatter than any Ibanez I ever touched. I'm not too picky in terms of neck profile, I also enjoy the thick C-shape of my Schecter 007 Blackjack, but I prefer the Roter neck over all other guitars I have. Also, the fact that it's a fanned fret gives about 4cm more space between the nut and the beginning of the headstock - plenty of space for my thumb, which is always parallel to the neck (classical style). The fact that there's no volute (thank god) means that my thumb can rest comfortably when I'm playing the first fret. The fanned fret aspect is a no-brainer, it's no work at all to get used to that. The stock strings were way too loose for my taste, but the 10 - 52 set + 68 work really well. I think that the ergonomics aspect of fanned frets is mostly bull, at least my fingers don't fan out that way when I have 4 fingers on the same string. That said, having a shorter scale on the high strings is a little more convenient, but to me, fanned frets are all about the tone.

GAS Control

I'm kidding, in a way. But having this guitar makes Schecter, Ibanez etc. rather uninteresting for me. The fanned fret concept is so superior to regular frets that even regular baritone 7-strings aren't tempting me anymore. So the only guitar I might buy in the next years could be the Agile pendulum, if they finally get the pickup right and add more interesting finishes. In many ways, this guitar is all I ever wanted though, and it's going to be my main player for a long time.


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So that's the guitar. I waited 5 months longer than agreed, had promises given to me and broken and was accused of slander/lying when the first guitar had some serious issues which I documented in photographs. Roter does build some amazing guitars, they just drop the ball in some details. Since this is a production model, most of these kinks will surely be worked out over time. The one thing that I really have to criticize is customer care. Apophis regularly dodges questions (mine and everybody else's), and when he finally does answer them, he acts like you had that answer all along. Look at the Roter FF thread, there are plenty of examples. Latest example: I receive a "DPD tracking number", but when I try it, DPD says it's too short, there are several digits missing. I write to Apophis, he replies "strange, for me it works" and sends me a completely different number.
In some situations, I was reminded of Family Guy, when Peter and some dude are in the elevator. Peter farts, looks around, points at the other guy and says "It was you".

Should YOU get a Roter then? Depends. For the money, it's an absolutely amazing guitar, even with the problems it has. If it didn't have those, it would be PERFECT. Reliability and transparency are definitely not Roter's strong points. Going in, they will tell you anything just to make the situation seem fine, but when problems come up they sometimes react inappropriately. If you can live with paying up front and waiting for an unknowable time (could be weeks, could be months) and have the self control not to ask any questions about estimated completion dates, you will be happy. "When it's done" is the key phrase here. Maybe the first guitar you receive will have some problems, but in the end most of these will be worked out. Probably. Me, I'm glad I came out of this deal the way I did, but Roter will definitely have to step up their game before I think about returning to them. Still, to the patient ones, I can recommend them.

That's it, folks. I tried to be objective while still pointing out the things I didn't like. I really hope this will not turn into a shitstorm, but people with half a braincell should be able to see that overall, I'm happy now.

And since it's always all about me (or anyway, it bloody well should be), that's all that counts.

[Prydogga]

Great review dude, sounds like these are still worth more than they are priced, even with the downsides, is there any possibility of taking the neck off and bolting it again to see if the string placement can be aligned to the right more?

Congrats dude.

[Fred the Shred]

Nice one, mate. Glad to see everything worked out in the end!

[ZeroS1gnol]

I have to say, awesome looking guitar!

Great wood-look.

Too bad about the intonation problems. What is your tuning? For a lower tuning I can see why this would be such a problem...if not, those seperate saddles arent really placed well. And about the .68: why go so fat when the scale is longer on the low? Isnt a .60 tight enough?

[Empryrean]

Great review sir
now I need sleep, and clips

[Jeepers]

Congrats!
Looks gorgeous!
Clips are definately a good idea :P

[Lethe]

Neck pocket is a very tight fit (as it should be). No wiggle room there.

Tuning is Drop-A (AEADGBE), so intonation should be feasible.

.068 on low-A is a little less tension than .052 on E, so I need a string that big. Also, I like the tension, everything feels more controlled. Treble strings are lighter.

[ralphy1976]

very nice review, very nice guitar.

thanks for that. +1

[MF_Kitten]

the quality issues are disappointing. i'm going to go over my guitar carefully and make sure it's up to my standards. on my intrepid, there were setup issues that required filing of the nut, truss rod adjustments, and adjusting the action to make it play decently without being a buzzfest, and to get rid of dead notes. also, the fretboard was spliced on between the nut and the first fret, instead of being one continuous piece of wood. there were weird blotches and flaws in the satin finish, and there were globs of glue on the fretboard both between and around frets here and there. still, with a setup and some care, it played really well, and sounded good.

so i'm hoping these aren't global mistakes, but are isolated incidents. as for the frets, i only care if the pitch is off when playing them. i'll also have to steel wool them if they are rough.

so yeah, i'm prepared for inspection.

[BlackMetalVenom]

Amazing, thanks for taking all that time to write this review for us man.

[Lern2swim]

Only issues that kind of kill it for me are the intonation issue and the f# "hanging" off the side of the neck. I'm probably going to wait for them to pump out another run or 2 and then order one.

Originally Posted by MF_Kitten

the quality issues are disappointing. i'm going to go over my guitar carefully and make sure it's up to my standards. on my intrepid, there were setup issues that required filing of the nut, truss rod adjustments, and adjusting the action to make it play decently without being a buzzfest, and to get rid of dead notes. also, the fretboard was spliced on between the nut and the first fret, instead of being one continuous piece of wood. there were weird blotches and flaws in the satin finish, and there were globs of glue on the fretboard both between and around frets here and there. still, with a setup and some care, it played really well, and sounded good..

Jeez. I didn't realize you had so many issues with your guitar. Makes me kind of happy that mine came almost ready to go out of the box (had to do a bit of nut filing due to changing string gauges and I had to do what Lethe did here, cutting the saddle screw)

[Lethe]

It's not hanging off the side, it looks worse in the pics than it actually is. There is still about 1 mm to go before the fret is rounded off. Besides, this is a 7, so I tune that string to A.

[Lern2swim]

Originally Posted by Lethe

It's not hanging off the side, it looks worse in the pics than it actually is. There is still about 1 mm to go before the fret is rounded off. Besides, this is a 7, so I tune that string to A.

I was thinking 8 string for some reason. And "hanging" was in quotes because I realize it's still usable and not actually off the edge. I was just simplifying the description.

[MF_Kitten]

what´s the normal amount of space next to the lowest string from the fretboard edge? like, what´s the norm for this? i´ve played a guitar with the lowest string almost sitting on the edge, and that string went right over the edge CONSTANTLY. i couldn´t play it.

[vampiregenocide]

I wouldn't expect any issues at all from what is essentially a custom, but seeing as it's Roter's first run you kinda have to expect it and cut them some slack. I'm sure once he's built more and become more efficient at doing these semi-customs quality control wise, that they'll be far better in the future.

They look great though.

[Mindcrime1204]

Thanks for the great and honest review dude! Sounds like I will NOT be doing business with them tho!

[TemjinStrife]

Originally Posted by vampiregenocide

I wouldn't expect any issues at all from what is essentially a custom, but seeing as it's Roter's first run you kinda have to expect it and cut them some slack. I'm sure once he's built more and become more efficient at doing these semi-customs quality control wise, that they'll be far better in the future.

They look great though.

Dude, this is the SECOND TRY on an instrument that costs over $1000. I'm sorry, but that's too much.

I think this is a result of simply biting off more than they can chew.

[technomancer]

Hmmm misaligned bridge or neck (cause of spacing issue on fretboard), poor intonation (again indicating badly placed bridge saddles), and poor fretwork. These are issues I would send a $500 Agile back for for a refund. No way on earth I'd order one of these, especially considering these issues are on a SECOND ATTEMPT after the guitar was sent back.

I'm not sure which I find more surprising, the lack of quality on these or people's willingness to accept it.

[Matt Crooks]

Congrats

[PnKnG]

Originally Posted by technomancer

Hmmm misaligned bridge or neck (cause of spacing issue on fretboard), poor intonation (again indicating badly placed bridge saddles), and poor fretwork. These are issues I would send a $500 Agile back for for a refund. No way on earth I'd order one of these, especially considering these issues are on a SECOND ATTEMPT after the guitar was sent back.

I'm not sure which I find more surprising, the lack of quality on these or people's willingness to accept it.

Yes, while you give him 5 weeks to basically make a new body and neck + all the other guitars that still need to be build.

Did they take too many orders in at once? YES.

But rushing them and putting pressure on them doesn't helps to fix the things that went wrong.

[Lethe]

Originally Posted by technomancer

Hmmm misaligned bridge or neck (cause of spacing issue on fretboard), poor intonation (again indicating badly placed bridge saddles), and poor fretwork.

For the sake of fairness, the string spacing issue is by design, it's not a blunder in building. The distance is constant throughout the whole neck, meaning the nut was deliberately slotted this way and the bridge placed accordingly. Could be fixed by increasing neck width by maybe 1 mm or decreasing string spacing.

[technomancer]

Originally Posted by Lethe

For the sake of fairness, the string spacing issue is by design, it's not a blunder in building. The distance is constant throughout the whole neck, meaning the nut was deliberately slotted this way and the bridge placed accordingly. Could be fixed by increasing neck width by maybe 1 mm or decreasing string spacing.

So it's badly spaced by design... much better

[Ishan]

I was really interested by these guitars, maybe for a 7 or 8 strings, but now I don't know. A bit too many problems to go through and maybe having to send guitars back and forth to Poland.
No thx

[vampiregenocide]

Originally Posted by TemjinStrife

Dude, this is the SECOND TRY on an instrument that costs over $1000. I'm sorry, but that's too much.

I think this is a result of simply biting off more than they can chew.

Yeah true. :/

[Psionicist]

I appreciate the review. When I look at purchasing guitars, I often count on people's impressions on the forums, especially in terms of custom work. I wont be getting a Roter.
Incidentally, when I read "this is their first run, give them some slack", I thought for a second I was in the Emperion thread by mistake
Oddly enough, I say when you pay more for a guitar, the builder gets LESS slack.