[Hexer]

can you recommend me a pair of cheap, but still good (or acceptable at least) monitors for my homerecording-setup? something I can hook up directly to my PC

so far I do all my mixing/mastering with headphones as I feel that works better than my computer-speakers. and the old PC-speakers will have to be replaced soon, anyway, so....

[Jerich]

you said cheap but didn't give a max price you wanna spend......Now that M-Audio has been purchased by Avid/DigiDesign they have some pretty sweet prices.DX5 about 150.00 a apair...might i reccomend Yamaha HS Series HS50M $199.00 or $HS80M 349.00, and stay away from Behringers they Lie about the sound they are not really accurate....I can only speak for the ones I know....

[Hexer]

those are actives right? and I would need actives if I got it right

yeah, I saw the HS50M and the behringers online (and some others) but I dont have ANY experience with this. but yes, thats pretty much the price-range I'm looking at

[Rev2010]

I've been recommending the Behringers for quite some time now. Here's my review:

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/gear-reviews/5152-behringer-truth-2031a-studio-monitors.html


Rev.

[The Dark Wolf]

I use Edirol MA-10's, which are very affordable.

Sound? Very clean and accurate on the top 2/3 of the frequency. They fall short in the bass department. They are decently loud, but no match for monitors with more power (These are only 20W). At low volumes, these are terrific for the price. Very clear. At higher volumes, they need a little help (they will crush most computer speakers for accuracy, however).

You can get the MA-15Ds for about $180, and they seem to be a bit of an upgrade to the MA-10s. Both of these are active.

I paired them up with a set of Kinyo 5.1 surround speakers/subwoofer to add a bit of fullness in the low end.

[Mind Riot]

Some facts about this stuff:

1. You can't mix accurately on headphones.

2. There are a number of decent, solid monitors for not too much money. I hear good things about Wharfedale Diamond Pro 8.2a's, and they're active.

3. Without acoustic treatment in your listening room, it won't matter if you have $100 monitors or $10,000 monitors, you won't be hearing the sound accurately.

4. It's WAY better to have cheaper monitors in an acoustically treated room than to have better monitors in an untreated room.

[Hexer]

I'd also use them for practicing by means of playing along to songs or midi (guitarpro) so I need them to also be loud enough to keep up with the guitar

oh, and I'll be using those in my room. I dont have a decent studio-room to work in

[Drew]

Originally Posted by Mind Riot

1. You can't mix accurately on headphones.

I disagree. You can mix accurately on anything with good reproduction (i.e - a good set of headphones) provided you know their limitations and the frequencies they favor perfectly.

Is it EASIER to mix on a good set of monitors than a good set of headphones? Of course. But, like any monitors in any acoustic environment, your ability to mix on them corresponds to how well you know their response - it certianly can be done.

[DSS3]

I agree with Drew, but it should be pointed out that headphones don't give you a true stereo image.

[Drew]

Sounds pretty stereo to me...

Sure, the stereo field may be slightly different from a set of headphones to a set of speakers, but I wouldn't say one is "true" while the other is "not stereo." And, in this Ipod day and age when an increasing number of music listeners listen to your work on headphones rather than through a stereo, I think it's more important than ever to have a good stereo mix as heard through a set of phones.

Sure, I'd love it if people only listened to my stuff through $10k speakers in acoustically treated rooms, but let's be realistic here...


(as an aside, I keep a set of in-ear buds around basically for this purpose - to make sure a mix doesn't completely suck when you listen to it the same way the majority of mp3-player-weilding potential fans will.)

[Mind Riot]

I'm sorry Drew, but physics, biology, and the recording industry disagree with you. I think headphones can be very useful for checking small changes in a mix and trying to hear noise problems, but by their very nature they are not an accurate mixing tool. Accuracy is the goal when mixing, and headphones are not capable of truly accurate sound throughout the whole frequency spectrum, not necessarily because of their design, but because of the way the human ear percieves sound and differs from one person to the next. The most expensive, accurate pair of cans in the world won't make a difference if the human ear is perceiving the sound incorrectly due to proximity.

Here's an interesting article from a studio owner in Canada about it that explains it nicely: http://www.bluebearsound.com/articles/headphones.htm

Now, I understand that if headphones are all you've got, then you do what you gotta do. I've been there, I was there for a long time. But if it was truly possible to mix accurately on headphones, you'd see engineers doing it. It would be cheaper, easier, and much more convenient due to it's portability, and it would streamline music projects in a way that would benefit the business. But you don't see them doing it because it simply doesn't work. It's good to CHECK your mix on headphones, just as you check it on a car stereo and a boombox to make sure it plays well on many systems, but they're not designed or intended to work as a primary mixing tool.

[The Dark Wolf]

Remember my analogy about the hammer, Drew? Inevitably, dude. Inevitably.




My 02. Pesos. It's possible. You can find ALL SORTS of opinions on one side or the other. Is it best? No. Is it possible? Yep.

http://www.headwize.com/articles/mixing_art.htm

[Drew]

Originally Posted by Mind Riot

I'm sorry Drew, but physics, biology, and the recording industry disagree with you. I think headphones can be very useful for checking small changes in a mix and trying to hear noise problems, but by their very nature they are not an accurate mixing tool. Accuracy is the goal when mixing, and headphones are not capable of truly accurate sound throughout the whole frequency spectrum, not necessarily because of their design, but because of the way the human ear percieves sound and differs from one person to the next. The most expensive, accurate pair of cans in the world won't make a difference if the human ear is perceiving the sound incorrectly due to proximity.

Here's an interesting article from a studio owner in Canada about it that explains it nicely: http://www.bluebearsound.com/articles/headphones.htm

Now, I understand that if headphones are all you've got, then you do what you gotta do. I've been there, I was there for a long time. But if it was truly possible to mix accurately on headphones, you'd see engineers doing it. It would be cheaper, easier, and much more convenient due to it's portability, and it would streamline music projects in a way that would benefit the business. But you don't see them doing it because it simply doesn't work. It's good to CHECK your mix on headphones, just as you check it on a car stereo and a boombox to make sure it plays well on many systems, but they're not designed or intended to work as a primary mixing tool.

Mind Riot, in order to really go any deeper into this, we'd have to agree on a few mutual definitions here, most notably what we mean by "accurately," and let's be honest, that's a total can of worms.

I'm not saying that I think headphones are the only way to mix, or even the best - far from it. I'm just saying that, armed with a good pair of headphones, a capable engineer should be able to put an excellent mix together, and that in the bigger picture the guy listening to the mix makes a FAR bigger difference in the final product than the way he's listening to it does. As such, I think categorically stating "you can't mix on headphones" is a slight exaggeration at the very least, and certianly not a fact - you can do so, perfectly well, if you know what you're doing. It may not be the easiest way to work, but with enough experience, it DOES work.

I get what you're saying with proximity effect and the difficulty in reproducing bass frequencies within those short distances, but at the same time I have no problem hearing slight changes in low end when I'm monitoring through my phones, and again, it's all in how well you know your gear - effect this may have on your mix will have the exact same effect on any other mix you compare it to, so as long as you know what a good mix sounds like on the system you're working on (assuming, again, that your system can reproduce a full frequency range, which my ears and my experience tells me a good set of phones can), then you should have little trouble getting excellent results.

Bob, the only hammer saying I'm thinking of is "if the only tool in your box is a hammer, then everything's a nail," and I sort of doubt that's what you had in mind...

[The Dark Wolf]

Originally Posted by Drew

Bob, the only hammer saying I'm thinking of is "if the only tool in your box is a hammer, then everything's a nail," and I sort of doubt that's what you had in mind...

Remember the PM you sent me to vent...? I replied with my "On the internet vs. real life and the guy who wants a hammer..."?

Dude, I KNEW you never read what I write!

[FredGrass]

Drew's right. Headphones are far from an ideal monitor, but as long as the tech has the hours in the chair to know exactly what his equipment's telling him, then he'll be able to knock out a decent mix. Even a great mix, with the right person at the controls. You can put a noob in a million dollar studio, and he's still a noob. The gear can be as pristine as you want it to be, but that won't give you an advantage over a guy with a solid understanding of the way his compromised system translates audio, be it a set of headphones or a set of monitors in his untreated room.

My favourite small monitors are KRK's, RP5 or RP8 (never had a chance to listen to the RP6 model). They can be had for about a buck fifty a piece for the Rokit 5's and two fifty a piece for the 8's. They sound great though, clarity and response are awesome on these little guys.

[Mind Riot]

Originally Posted by Drew

Mind Riot, in order to really go any deeper into this, we'd have to agree on a few mutual definitions here, most notably what we mean by "accurately," and let's be honest, that's a total can of worms.

I'm not saying that I think headphones are the only way to mix, or even the best - far from it. I'm just saying that, armed with a good pair of headphones, a capable engineer should be able to put an excellent mix together, and that in the bigger picture the guy listening to the mix makes a FAR bigger difference in the final product than the way he's listening to it does. As such, I think categorically stating "you can't mix on headphones" is a slight exaggeration at the very least, and certianly not a fact - you can do so, perfectly well, if you know what you're doing. It may not be the easiest way to work, but with enough experience, it DOES work.

I agree that the most important part of the mixing equation is the engineer, but as stated in that article I linked to, the human ear is simply not capable of perceiving the sound spectrum accurately when using headphones. The engineers skill is not even a factor when the biology of human beings and the physics of sound prevents him getting an accurate representation. Engineers know the limitations of their bodies. They know about Fletcher Munson Effect, they know that they shouldn't mix at really high volumes, they know that they can only mix for a certain period of time before their ears become fatigued and no longer percieve sound correctly, and they know that they can't perceive sound accurately when it's coming from something so close and isolated as headphones, regardless of the accuracy of the phones.

Maybe I should have phrased things differently. I guess for me to state "you can't mix on headphones" is a misnomer, simply because if you do mix on headphones then obviously you can. A more accurate, but lengthy way to say what I meant is that headphones present a number of problems that make getting a good mix that will translate out of them virtually impossible.

Originally Posted by Drew

I get what you're saying with proximity effect and the difficulty in reproducing bass frequencies within those short distances, but at the same time I have no problem hearing slight changes in low end when I'm monitoring through my phones, and again, it's all in how well you know your gear - effect this may have on your mix will have the exact same effect on any other mix you compare it to, so as long as you know what a good mix sounds like on the system you're working on (assuming, again, that your system can reproduce a full frequency range, which my ears and my experience tells me a good set of phones can), then you should have little trouble getting excellent results.

One of the things mentioned in the article and the article TDW linked to was that having a room as part of the equation acts as a leveler as far as the perception of the sound. The room and the air in between the speakers and your ears all play a crucial part, and minimize greatly the differences between the ears of one person and the ears of the next. Headphones, on the other hand, exaggerate these differences due to their proximity.

This is a crux of my point, right here: Your EARS are the unreliable factor. All this is to compensate for the limitations of your body, not the limitations of the gear.

How well you know your headphones is irrelevant, because the compensations you are making are for YOUR EARS ONLY. The next guy will hear it totally differently, because everyone percieves sound differently, especially with headphones. The great thing about speakers is that they minimize those differences so that it is much more likely to sound good to everybody. Air, and rooms, are the great sound equalizer, making everything sound more similar to everyone. Even if you know your headphones really well and compensate for what you percieve as their quirks, you are really only making a mix for Drew and Drew only, made with the unique response of Drew's ears to sound good to Drew. Mind Riot could walk in and put on those phones and say "Man, there is WAY too much bass in this mix, and the cymbals sound muffled!" Because MR's ears are different.

And even if you do get a great sounding mix to you, it's almost impossible to get it to translate well to other systems. Not being able to feel the bass in your body makes you put more bass in the mix than it needs (even if it's totally subconsious, we all do it with cans), not having the air between you and the speakers as a damper for the high end causes you to make the mix not bright enough, not being able to percieve the stereo image accurately because headphones completely isolate the left and right channel as well as remove any interaction in the air between them causes you to have trouble with the stereo spread and phase issues, not having any natural room ambience causes you to add too much reverb, and all this is totally separate from the general frequency response perception differences between people. All of this and the degree to which YOU, DREW, compensate for it is different from the way the next guy will. Even if you know your headphones through and through you're still only making Drew's Personal Mix, because the unstable factor is your ears. All of these issues are resolved or greatly minimized with monitors.

[The Dark Wolf]

Well said, Mind Riot.

As long as you are willing to say something along the lines of, "Well, mixing on headphones is possible. But achieving a truly neutral mix has some serious obstacles, and if you wanted a pro-level recording, you'd almost never mix on anything but decent monitors."

But still, the poor guy just wanted to know some good ideas for some cheap monitors that don't suck. That's all.

[Drew]

Mind Riot, let me first state that in principle, I agree with you - it's far easier to get great results with a good set of monitors than it is with a good set of headphones. And while I do most of my EQ tweaking with phones on (specificaly for the high end, where I find they have a much clearer response than my speakers) I definitely go back and forth between the two.

However, I think you're missing part of my point - everything you're saying about biology, proximity effect, the effect of the room on evening sound... Thing is, all of these factors are still perfectly consistant from mix to mix for a given person. You and I may hear a mix differently on a set of phones, but we will hear every mix we listen to on a given set of phones differently in exactly the same way every time. So, while if you're working on a mix and the low end response just doesn't feel right on your headphones so you crank it way up to get the mix to "feel" a lot like it would through speakers, if you then grab whatever CD you're using as a reference mix and listen to 30 seconds or so, it'll become immediately clear to you that you're using WAY more low end than the mix you know you like on a good stereo. Sure, the CD will sound less bass-y too due to the headphones, but it will sound less bassy in the same way as your mix will that you're working on. Once you learn to recognise that restrained bass (relative to a good stereo) as the ideal mix for the medium you're using to monitor your mix, and not expect the mix to sound exactly the same through phones as your memory of a good mix through good speakers, then this ceases to be an issue and you can dial in a mix that will sound robust and full, but not overly bass-heavy, on a proper stereo.

And, for what it's worth, this is a problem you'll have with any mix on ANY system unless you're using a reference mix - your ear begins to get used to something, and starts demanding to hear more and more of it. Unless you stop periodically to "calibrate" your ear by letting it listen to something that you KNOW sounds good, on the system you're monitoring through, it's virtually impossible to produce a balanced mix. It's the equivalent of stopping and walking away for a half hour, and coming back and listening with a fresh set of ears.

Honestly, phasing issues are really what I see as the biggest limiting factor with trying to work exclusively with phones, but it's a pretty good idea no matter WHAT you're listening on to condense a mix down to mono at some point anyway just to watch for the effects of phase cancellation, which renders even that a non-point.

I'm not saying it's not better to work on monitors than phones, I'm just saying that all of the physics you can throw at the problem is still, at the end of the day, something you can learn to work with and around.



EDIT:

Originally Posted by The Dark Wolf

As long as you are willing to say something along the lines of, "Well, mixing on headphones is possible. But achieving a truly neutral mix has some serious obstacles, and if you wanted a pro-level recording, you'd almost enerv mix on anything but decent monitors."

Sure, go and say what I'm trying to say in a single sentence while I'm posting, dick.

Anyway, it's also worth noting that, as the prevalance of mp3 players means an increasing number of people are listening to music a majority of their listening time on headphones, it makes sense to me to make sure your mix holds up with a professional mix on a set of phones. I wouldn't go so far as to optimize towards the phones just yet, as ultimatly I prefer real speakers and want the mix to sound as good as possible on my preferred method of listening, but it's something we have to keep in mind here and will make this an increasingly hot topic in the future, i suspect...

[The Dark Wolf]

Originally Posted by Drew

EDIT:

Sure, go and say what I'm trying to say in a single sentence while I'm posting, dick.

Call it payback for your ass not reading my posts.

[Rev2010]

I have to side with MindRiot in that you simply cannot produce a great mix in headphones alone. Sure you could mix in headphones but any mix done solely in headphones 98% of the time will not sound good on other systems. The 2% left is the possibility of chance that somehow a headphone mix does manage to translate well. Headphones are a tool just as studio monitors are. As a matter of fact you'd be damned hard pressed to find someone that never uses headphones to reference check at some point during mixing and mastering. You need the two. But I cannot be convinced headphones should ever be regarding as "OK" to do a fullblown mix/master on no matter how expensive they are. No way.


Rev.

[Drew]

You guys are totally missing my point. Again, I'm not saying headphones are better, or that it's not more convenient to work on monitors. All I'm pointing out is that all of the limitations of working with headphones are the sort of thing that is a problem on ANY system if you're not intimately familiar with how it interprets a mix. As long as you don't make the mistake of trying to make a mix sound like it would through a set of speakers on your phones, you have the potential to get excellent results.

Is it easier to do a truely professional-sounding mix on a set of monitors than a set of phones? Sure it is - the learning curve is quite a bit lower. But at the same time, if you think that if you give a guy working on a set of reference-grade phones that he's intimately familiar with a set of good monitors, his work will suddenly go from great to professional, then I have to disagree.

Sure, at the absolute upper eschalon of mixing ability, it wouldn't surprise me if it can make a difference. But let's be realistic here, even the best of us working in our home studios aren't doing professional grade mixes. Some of us are doing better work than your average small to mid-sized local studio, some by quite a lot (some of the mixes Vince has sent me so far are damned good), but none of us are going to give Devin Townsend a run for his money anytime soon, no matter WHAT we're mixing on.

Ultimately, at the end of the day, how well you know the speakers or headphones you generally use to monitor matters FAR more than whether it's a set of speakers, or a set of headphones. Thats all I'm saying. It's what you know best, not "A is arbitrarily better than B," no matter WHAT you're using.

[Mind Riot]

Drew, I agree that using pro mixes of a record whose sound you like is a good way to help you control your bass in the mix. But I don't think it mitigates all the other factors at work. It's a good idea to check monitor mixes against pro albums as well. And whether on headphones or monitors, it's always a good idea to take frequent breaks to let the ear recover. They are sensitive organs, and can't take high sound pressure levels for long before they start to dull their sensitivity to protect themselves from damage.

I strongly disagree that the problems inherent in headphones are no worse than the problems with any system if you don't know it well. That's part of my point, that monitors and rooms and air space work WITH your body and the laws of physics to make the accurate perception of sound possible, whereas headphones work against all those things. Monitors don't make it easier, they make it possible. Learning how to use monitors effectively is not the same hurdle as trying to overcome your own biology as well as natural laws. And from my own experience and what I've heard from many people online, switching to monitors DOES make the crucial difference in mixing ability. I've read experiences countless times where someone talks about how they just couldn't get their mixes right with headphones and when they got monitors that was the thing that made it all click.

But now we seem to be talking about quality and the level of mixing skill we're dealing with. At this point I don't really have much left to say. If we're talking about only making recordings at home and not trying for a pro mix, then the criteria for success shifts. If one isn't interested in making their recordings sound pro or doesn't think they'll ever have the skill to get there, then by all means use headphones, because you're right about that, the difference isn't THAT great. Cans will get you a listenable mix to play for friends or use for demos, especially if one is aware of all the factors at play that you seem to be.

But if one decides to go for it and try to make their recordings sound pro, then no, headphones will not serve for mixing. We can agree to disagree if you like, but at that level they just don't have it. And with all due respect and in the nicest way possible, I do feel I've backed up my side of things with quite a bit of proof; an article from a studio owner, biological explanations, physics explanations, and the combined experience and assertions of virtually the entire pro audio industry. I think your statements are very well worded and very well thought out, but again with all due respect I haven't seen anything but your opinions in them. As they say, the proof is in the pudding, and what the pro audio industry uses exclusively for mixing is well known.

But again, if we are just talking about bedroom mixes for friends or what have you, then that has it's own standards of success.

[The Dark Wolf]

I still say you guys are probably overwhelming poor dude with all this info instead of providing good, cheap monitor idears.

I wish you remembered my anecdote, D, 'cause this thread proves it, in spades.

[Mind Riot]

I did recommend the Wharfedale Diamond 8.2a's. I hear nothing but good about them, but not sure how much of that is hype. The KRK low cost speakers seem to be held in high regard.

Myself, I use Event 20/20's, but not only are they passive (the original poster needs active, right?), they're also discontinued, replaced by the 20/20 v2's. I think the only difference is the connectors on the back, mine only have binding posts, I think the new v2's have jacks or something.

And what anecdote? Just curious if I'm being laughed at in PM's or something.

[Hexer]

lol, why do all my threads end up in huge discussions???

your not really overwhelming me. I'm not really into the biological aspects, but I study electrotechnical engineering, so all the technical stuff I do understand quite well. it wasnt the point of the thread though
havent I seen a headphones-thread in this very forum???

lol, last thread I postet over on a german musicians-forum ended up even worse than this. didnt have the time to visit the board for a few days, than came back to find some 3 or 4 pages of posts, the thread transformed into a battlefield, 2 armys of boardmembers at war and the moderator having deleted about half of the posts...... WTF????
seems I have a talent for asking about controversial topics

I'll do some more research about monitors that should fit my needs and decide then. I dont really need them soon