How to capture the perfect tone.

[Hellraizer]

I know this discussion has been totally worn out, and I did some searching but couldn't exactly find the answers I'm looking for. Next month I will be moving into an apartment. Totally lame, but hey, I gotta have somewhere to go. Anyway, I am looking for a good way to record with out pissing the neighbors off. I have a Boss BR-900CD multi track digital recorder and I just can't stand the onboard models and effects. So I am looking for a way to run my Powerball head and a 6505 head into my recorder. Since neither head has a line out and I can't mic up my cab without pissing alot of people off around me, what do you guys suggest? Also I was wondering, I used to mic up my 4x12, it wasn't a great mic but it wasn't terrible either. I just couldn't get a thick solid tone that sounded like what I was hearing. Should I be recording into something else. Is this recorder just shitty. Any thoughts?

[Ror3h]

Look into impulses man, really cool stuff.
Impulses!

[Seven]

Can you record it direct and then add effects after maybe, if you have a POD or something.

Or do you have to record the ENGL?

[Hellraizer]

Originally Posted by Seven

Can you record it direct and then add effects after maybe, if you have a POD or something.

Or do you have to record the ENGL?

I would really like to be able to record the ENGL and my other guitarists Peavey directly into the recorder? On seperate tracks of course. I'm not sure how to directly record them if I even can do that. I really like the way they sound together when we jam but since I will be in an apartment I can't turn up at my normal volume.

[MF_Kitten]

i´d say go the easy route with either guitar rig 2 or some line 6 pod xt action, seeing as there really isn´t any way of capturing the right tone from the heads without micing a cab, especially with no line outs...

you COULD use the FX loop outs on both heads, into some sort of cab simulators, then into the recording gear, BUT you need something to plug into the Cabinet outputs as a load, or else it´s gunne be bad news for the head... never run a tube head without a load on the speaker cabinet outputs :P

i can do that with my solid state head though... one of the very few benefits of solid state hehe :P

[Hellraizer]

Yea I know no load = bad news
What about a hotplate? Would that not work? How bad would attenuation kill my tone though?

[Durero]

I scored a Palmer speaker simulator/load box of ebay a while back. And just this week I got a Carvin TS100 tube power amp. I haven't tried the Palmer yet as I'm having too much fun blasting away at loud volumes, but the Palmer is supposed to be very close to the tone of a good mic-in-front-of-cab setup.

[B Lopez]

Originally Posted by Durero

I scored a Palmer speaker simulator/load box of ebay a while back. And just this week I got a Carvin TS100 tube power amp. I haven't tried the Palmer yet as I'm having too much fun blasting away at loud volumes, but the Palmer is supposed to be very close to the tone of a good mic-in-front-of-cab setup.

on the Carvin, I own one too!

[theunforgiven246]

Originally Posted by Hellraizer

I would really like to be able to record the ENGL and my other guitarists Peavey directly into the recorder? On seperate tracks of course. I'm not sure how to directly record them if I even can do that. I really like the way they sound together when we jam but since I will be in an apartment I can't turn up at my normal volume.

You can just run the fx out, into whatever you use for recording, then add impulses that simulate real cabs (they sound really good), then you can just run the amps loud enough to hear. It sounds good enough for demoing.

[Drew]

Originally Posted by Hellraizer

What about a hotplate? Would that not work? How bad would attenuation kill my tone though?

Well, there's certainly a change in tone, but it's not overly pronounced if you use the "deep" and "bright" switches (which really aren't active EQ's in a traditional sense, but rather do a pretty good job returning your tone to it's original unattenuated sound), and the improvements you get from poweramp saturation more than make up for it, IMO. I swear by my thing - I can get almost TOO much poweramp saturation out of my Rect-o-verb at apartment friendly (daytime, anyway) levels. If you're not sure, buy from somewhere with a good return policy.

Also, micing an amp is a science. Spend a LOT of time experimenting with mic placement; right in the center of the magnet will give you all treble and fizz, and the edge of the cone will be dark and indistinct. Distance from the speaker makes a difference, too - it gets bassier due to proximity effect when you're right on the grill, and gradualyl tapers off until about 1.5-2" back, at which point the further back you go the more the "room" sound begins to play a part of the tone, and the less "in your face" the guitar sounds (for some applications, this may be a good thing). When you get the position right, though, it won't be EXACTLY the tone you're hearing in the room (nor is it reasonable to expect it to be - you're listening in different positions), but a SM57 positioned properly will give you totally professional tone. the secret is experimentation.

[Hellraizer]

Originally Posted by Drew

Well, there's certainly a change in tone, but it's not overly pronounced if you use the "deep" and "bright" switches (which really aren't active EQ's in a traditional sense, but rather do a pretty good job returning your tone to it's original unattenuated sound), and the improvements you get from poweramp saturation more than make up for it, IMO. I swear by my thing - I can get almost TOO much poweramp saturation out of my Rect-o-verb at apartment friendly (daytime, anyway) levels. If you're not sure, buy from somewhere with a good return policy.

What are you recording into?

[TomAwesome]

If you're just trying to get a miced sound recorded without pissing your neighbors off, you should look into something like an isolation cab.

[Hellraizer]

I'm really not even looking for a "miced" sound. I just really hate models and cheap FX. I just wanna get the that sweet tube tone from my Engl to my recorder without much loss of tone, and without screwin my head or recorder up.

[TomAwesome]

As far as I can see, the only ways to do that are to run direct from the effects loop, use something like Durero was talking about, mic your cab, or get an isocab. If you run direct from the FX out, you don't really need a hotplate or anything. You can just leave the master volume low, though no sound will be entering the power amp, so it shouldn't be loud anyway. That would probably be the easiest solution if you're using some cab models or something, but the only problem I see is the absence of the power amp. The power amp is an important part of your tone, so it'll sound different if you bypass it. Micing your cab will cause obvious difficulties. I'd either go with the Palmer unit or an Isocab.

[Hellraizer]

Yea thats why I was thinking about using the line out from a hotplate because I would get the power amp section too right? I guess I would still need a speaker simulator too? i may look into this palmer device.

[Drew]

Originally Posted by Hellraizer

Yea thats why I was thinking about using the line out from a hotplate because I would get the power amp section too right? I guess I would still need a speaker simulator too? i may look into this palmer device.

The Palmer isn't cheap, but it's one of the best I've heard. Satriani's been using one almost exclusively since "Engines of Creation."

That said, I personally think "Engines" was the only album he's done with the Palmer where the guitar tone doesn't sound like shit (compared to his non-Palmer tone, anyway), and I think the only reason it works as well as it does there is because it's an electronica album and the slightly fizzier "direct" sound sounds more appropriate in the mixes because so much of it isn't really intended to sound like a guitar, anyway. It's almost funny - I absolutely hated the production on Strange Beautiful Music, but by "Is there Love in Space" on a few tracks it sounded like he was getting the hang of the thing... until I read an interview mentioning he'd used a Peavey XXX cab on most of the tracks I could stand the tone of. Ditto with Super Collossal, I had a pretty good idea which tracks were mic'd amp (for instance, the lead break on "A Cool New Way") and which were direct before I read interviews confirming this.

I mean, in a pinch a speaker simulator is way better than nothing, but I'd rather mic up an attenuated amp that isn't running as hard as it could to keep it at an apartment-sane level than run a speaker simulator from a line out, given the choice.

For recording heavy guitars, I stickied an old thread were I linked an awesome article - it's a pretty intense read, but both entertaining and seriously worth the time.

[Hellraizer]

Thanx Drew, I didn't think about micing up the cab after I attenuate it. I just assumed it would sound like ass without being cranked up.

[Drew]

Well, the speaker doesn't really begin to start moving, but the poweramp compresses up nicely - it's not all the way there, but it's much closer.

[plusyear]

Get a palmer cab simulator!!

[nbarts]

I guess your options are either motherload or palmer. You will have to use some room impulse on top of them to come up with something realistic.
ISOcabs sound boxy, at least those that are in production for sale, apparently changing insulation material helps, but still most of users are more happy with motherload or palmer.