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Unread 01-15-2009, 11:30 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroSignal View Post
I personally don't have the time to pick this stuff apart. I wish I did though.
that's rich...


I'm sorry dude, but having read this entire thread I feel like you are the one person participating who hasn't given the opposing viewpoint any serious consideration. You just brush off any and all arguments without discrimination.

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Unread 01-15-2009, 11:49 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by shadowgenesis View Post
that's rich...


I'm sorry dude, but having read this entire thread I feel like you are the one person participating who hasn't given the opposing viewpoint any serious consideration. You just brush off any and all arguments without discrimination.
I'm sorry I missed the part where the UN building seemed like a threat.
Was it holding a rifle and wearing a turban?
Did it move at an alarming speed towards the border?
Did it also have C4 strapped to itself while engaged in aforementioned movement at an alarming velocity towards the direction of the fences which do not serve to oppress the palestinian people?

Did the UN aid convoy vehicles have long beards, crazy eyes and "DEATH TO ISRAEL" on their back plates?
Did the medical supply look like explosives? Let's see:
Medical supply - in the shape of boxes
Explosives - in the shape of boxes
Ok, it's conclusive, they do look like explosives.

O Shit son, the UN is WORKING with HAMAS? This is like season 3 of LOST, but more KICKASS. I just blew my mind from behind again, how do I keep doing this?

Ok ok Israel probably has a very good reason for all this.

Little kids will grow up to hate Israel for no other reason than because it was printed in the Quran, not because of the oppression or lack of food, water and electricy, or seeing their parents and friends blown up by sophisticated smart bombs. So they must die.
Women give birth to kids, well we can't have THAT. They die too.
Problem solved, no more terrorists, no one hates Israel anymore, flowers, candy and unicorns ensue.
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Unread 01-16-2009, 03:32 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowgenesis View Post
that's rich...


I'm sorry dude, but having read this entire thread I feel like you are the one person participating who hasn't given the opposing viewpoint any serious consideration. You just brush off any and all arguments without discrimination.
Have you maybe considered that there is no justification for what Israel is doing? Just like the Nazis/Fascists did in WW2, just like the Soviets did under Stalin and friends, just like South Africa did it with the black population there, just like the "christian" crusaders did it with the muslim population of Jerusalem when they took it, just like *insert another historical example here*...........

All of those mentioned above DID have their justifications for what they did. But those justifications were simply bullshit.

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Unread 01-16-2009, 07:37 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowgenesis View Post
that's rich...


I'm sorry dude, but having read this entire thread I feel like you are the one person participating who hasn't given the opposing viewpoint any serious consideration. You just brush off any and all arguments without discrimination.
Oh really? If someone would care to put forward a point that isn't horribly misinformed or just plain ridiculous then I would be more than happy to accommodate it.

Quote:
PERSON A:
1) Israel have bombed a school taken over by Hamas.
2) The UN school had rocket launchers on the roof.
3)The IAF dropped flyers warning of the intended bombing.
4)The school was almost empty at the time of destruction.
5) The only reason Hamas people died in the bombing of the school is because they did not think Israel, being a compassionate state, would target the school. Hamas was not seeking refuge in the school - it had converted it in to a millitary base. Therefore changing its status in the war.
The UN did not have rocket launchers on the roof, the school had up to 100 occupants at the time, Hamas were not in the school and even if they were they were not firing back. Israel is anything but a compassionate state, what we are looking at right now is a prime example of this. It was still a ....ing school when it was bombed. The UN said so. Reading this actually makes me angry.

Quote:
PERSON A:
Regarding your solutions to the problem, and apologies for my brevity in answering what is, as you described 'not an easy problem to solve',:-

1) Israel was in no way responsible for breaking any ceasefire. Every single day for 8 years with the exception of a few days in 2008, and especially since August 2005, Israel has received a barrage of rockets from Gaza. I have been in areas myself where a siren sounded. I had 15 seconds. There is undisputed evidence of these attacks.

2) Economic Blockade. At every point in the conflict in recent years, Israel has stated if Gaza stops firing at Israel, the IDF will cease-fire. This applies to the economic blockade as well. Under international law Israel has the right to declare all out war against the Hamas controlled government of Gaza. In all out war Israel has no obligation to provide humanitarian assistance, electricity or any other services to an enemy who started a war by armed attack. However it appears Israel is going far above the line it is required to keep to. It does provide and continues to provide aid even now. 3 hours are even set aside every day to have aid transported. You think, any other country would call a cease-fire every day whilst it was carrying out a defensive operation, and allow its enemy to re-group. Do you realise who has been stealing and selling this Israeli-provided aid, even this week:? hamas militants!!.

It is essential that Hamas is removed, and yes at all costs, if the Gazans are going to survive.

According to the Christian Science Monitor in June 2008, after 3 days without a single shooting violation of the Hamas-Israel cease-fire Israel boosted supplies of food and medicines in to the Gaza Strip by 50 percent, and will be making further relaxations shortly.

So there is no real economic blockade. The blockade is created by the Gazans. If they attack Israel, supplies stop. If they stop attacking, supplies start. Its in their hands. No country is ever expected to give support to a bomb-throwing enemy.

And furthermore - even at cease-fire, The Hamas Charter still not only denies Israel's right to exist, it calls for the complete destruction of the Jewish state. Please do not answer without answering this question - In 2009, do you think Israel has the right to exist?

3) Killing 1000 people. Out of the 1.5million people in Gaza, about 10% have a very active role in the running of Hamas (150,000). The IDF has a good estimate that 15,000 Hamas members are armed and extremely dangerous. They are trained in rockets, explosives, chemical and other kinds of warfare with the backing of Iran and Syria.

Of this 15,000, the most highly trained is the group Iz al-Din al-Qassam, which is now less of a terrorist group and more of a guerilla militia. It is formatted in terms what we know as brigades and companies. Israel is defending itself from a serious force that has become more impressive over the past 5-10 years.

Of the 1000 or so that have been killed in Gaza so far - although i do not have the identification facts at hand, i am very aware that an overwhelming majority of kills were mainly Hamas militants and Islamic Jihad. This has been indicated by video evidence and journalists in Gaza. The IDF is expecting a massive legal onslaught following this war and it has gone in ready to defend itself against all war-crimes accusations. There is very little chance that Israel has illegally killed any Gazan.

4) Apartheid - please give me one indication of any moment Israel has committed acts of apartheid. I have heard all the arguments many times before from Nazi based group in the UK and the USA. I have also heard it from Al-mujhadin and other radical groups related to Hamas that exist round the world. These are not credible sources. The claim of apartheid is nothing more than a publicity stunt by Arab organisations.

If by apartheid you mean the fences and walls Israel has built. Ill tell you about them. I live about 200 metres from one of them, so i guess i know what they are like. About 10% of the fence that is splitting the west bank and and other arabic areas from central Israel is concrete. These are dangerous areas where Israeli's were picked off on a daily basis by snipers and rocket-firings. 90% of the fence is in fact wire fence. It is 100% designed to stop suicide bombers entering Israel.

Work began on this fence at the begining of this decade - and since its completion Israel has had a drastic reduction in suicide bombings. This is not to say attemots are not being made. Public intelligence indicates that there are more active ready-to-go suicide bombers within 50 miles of me than ever before. These are people who walk in to a pizza shop or a hospital and blow themselves up. A suicide bomber was once taken down only 100 metres from where i live.

If you really want an education on what apartheid i, here is the structure of South Africa's now dismantled Apartheid in comparison to Israel. It is :-
1. The rocket attacks since 2001 have killed a total or 22 people. Twenty-two.
Israel also broke the ceasefire by sending commandos into Gaza to attack Hamas members.

2. Congratulations, you don't allow power, food, water, spare parts or fuel into Gaza. How the hell are they supposed to get their shit together when they hate the people who are starving them to death?

Let's assume that they are sending food through (which we all know that it's mostly the humanitarian agencies that are doing this), why the hell are they bombing their own trucks?

Also, I'd trust anyone from Christian Science about as much as I can throw them.

The mere idea that the blockade is "created" by the Gazan's is sick in the extreme. If you torment an animal enough it's going to ....ing bite back, do you still then blame the animal?

In answering his question, no, I don't think Israel has the right to exist in it's current hyper-aggressive Zionist state. I think Jews and Palestinians have the equal right to live on the land side by side and cooperate to to form a better country. Israel have ....ed that dream right up for me.

3. There has been no evidence to say that Hamas are using, or would be stupid enough to use chemical or biological weapons.

The overwhelming number of "kills", as he calls them, were NOT ....ing Hamas militants. He even says he doesn't have the facts at hand. I also find it interesting that he says journalists are reporting this when only Israeli journalists are allowed into Gaza. NO foreign (I.E. Third party) journalists are allowed in.

4. Of course there are more and more suicide bombers ready to go. You built a ....ing fence/wall that stops them from getting the basic necessities in life. You created the problem in the first place and you're just making it worse for the Palestinians who will then hate you even more.

Quote:
----Goal of separation----
SOUTH AFRICA
The explicit goal of bantustans was the elimination of rights of the majority South African black population, to ensure white hegemony.

ISRAEL
The explicit goal of the security fence is preventing surreptitious terrorist entry to Israel, which has caused the murder of hundreds of Israeli civilians.

----Citizenship----
SOUTH AFRICA
A central goal of official apartheid "separate development" was to strip black South Africans of their citizenship.

ISRAEL
West Bank Palestinians were never citizens of Israel. (Arabs, meanwhile, constitute 15% of the Israeli citizenry.)

----Forced transfer----
SOUTH AFRICA

Between 1950 and 1986, about 1.5 million Africans were forcibly removed from "white" cities to rural reservations.

ISRAEL
The security fence causes no transfer of population.
The wall just makes things worse for the Palestinians, and they basically have no rights now. They are at the mercy of the Israelis.

Of course they were never citizens of Israel! You came in and took their land and pushed them into the corners or your new territories. They WERE citizens of the country that was their before the Brits came and ....ed over the Arabs who lived there and helped them against the Turks.

There. Happy now?
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Unread 01-16-2009, 12:56 PM   #105
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Unread 01-16-2009, 12:59 PM   #106
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Unread 01-16-2009, 09:03 PM   #107
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Unread 01-17-2009, 12:07 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroSignal View Post
Oh really? If someone would care to put forward a point that isn't horribly misinformed or just plain ridiculous then I would be more than happy to accommodate it.



The UN did not have rocket launchers on the roof, the school had up to 100 occupants at the time, Hamas were not in the school and even if they were they were not firing back. Israel is anything but a compassionate state, what we are looking at right now is a prime example of this. It was still a ....ing school when it was bombed. The UN said so. Reading this actually makes me angry.



1. The rocket attacks since 2001 have killed a total or 22 people. Twenty-two.
Israel also broke the ceasefire by sending commandos into Gaza to attack Hamas members.

2. Congratulations, you don't allow power, food, water, spare parts or fuel into Gaza. How the hell are they supposed to get their shit together when they hate the people who are starving them to death?

Let's assume that they are sending food through (which we all know that it's mostly the humanitarian agencies that are doing this), why the hell are they bombing their own trucks?

Also, I'd trust anyone from Christian Science about as much as I can throw them.

The mere idea that the blockade is "created" by the Gazan's is sick in the extreme. If you torment an animal enough it's going to ....ing bite back, do you still then blame the animal?

In answering his question, no, I don't think Israel has the right to exist in it's current hyper-aggressive Zionist state. I think Jews and Palestinians have the equal right to live on the land side by side and cooperate to to form a better country. Israel have ....ed that dream right up for me.

3. There has been no evidence to say that Hamas are using, or would be stupid enough to use chemical or biological weapons.

The overwhelming number of "kills", as he calls them, were NOT ....ing Hamas militants. He even says he doesn't have the facts at hand. I also find it interesting that he says journalists are reporting this when only Israeli journalists are allowed into Gaza. NO foreign (I.E. Third party) journalists are allowed in.

4. Of course there are more and more suicide bombers ready to go. You built a ....ing fence/wall that stops them from getting the basic necessities in life. You created the problem in the first place and you're just making it worse for the Palestinians who will then hate you even more.



The wall just makes things worse for the Palestinians, and they basically have no rights now. They are at the mercy of the Israelis.

Of course they were never citizens of Israel! You came in and took their land and pushed them into the corners or your new territories. They WERE citizens of the country that was their before the Brits came and ....ed over the Arabs who lived there and helped them against the Turks.

There. Happy now?


Once again, you can't just march into a country, take the peoples land kill some of them and then expect no anger from them.
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Unread 01-17-2009, 12:36 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealthtastic View Post


Once again, you can't just march into a country, take the peoples land kill some of them and then expect no anger from them.
You can... Poland, lol.

j/k
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Unread 01-20-2009, 03:33 AM   #110
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Palestine started it. I could careless about the middle east. Let them go at each other. To the victor, the spoils. One one of them is wiped out, maybe we can quit hearing about this. Israel will win.
this gets my vote personally
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Unread 01-20-2009, 05:06 AM   #111
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this gets my vote personally
Why?
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Unread 01-20-2009, 07:45 AM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winterlover View Post
this gets my vote personally
Palestine didn't start it... if you want to get into it technically, Egypt started it when Moses led the Jews away from Israel (thus abandoning Israel as it was then)... then Britain started it in modern historical times...

They may be a completely different society to us, you may not appreciate it, hell you may hate the way they live. BUT that does not make them any less people than us, nor does it make them in any way less than us. It is development at a different level, with a completely different set of moral codes, religions and statutes. They too are people who just want to live their lives, but no, wWe had to take that away from all of them and create the current state of Israel, condemning both sides to a state of near perpetual warfare in which there is no real 'right' or 'wrong' side.

The western world started this after WWII, and they ....ed up good and proper.
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Unread 01-20-2009, 09:00 AM   #113
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The western world started this after WWII, and they ....ed up good and proper.
The UN is ....ing useless and basically comprised of self-righteous assholes who are as power-hungry as the next guys.

To the OP: Why the hell are you posting a letter to Israel here? Israel is probably not going to read it.
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Unread 01-21-2009, 08:55 PM   #114
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^ Sure they'll read it

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Unread 01-27-2009, 12:00 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by failshredder View Post
The UN is ....ing useless and basically comprised of self-righteous assholes who are as power-hungry as the next guys.

To the OP: Why the hell are you posting a letter to Israel here? Israel is probably not going to read it.
I know they won't, but, it's a thread title, and allowed me to sum up my thoughts on the matter.

Now, I am not forgetting, I am no less disgusted, and no less revolted by the lack of anyone persecuting a nation of murderous bastards that hide behind religion as a means to perform ethnic cleanisng.

No press allowed in, would that be because of the shame you suddenly feel Israel?

Disgusting. If you have any shred of decency you will allow people to be tried for war crimes instead of giving all your soldiers immunity.

Were it the other way round, like it has been when the nazi's were tried, then you'd be singing a different song.

.... the lot of you.

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Unread 01-28-2009, 08:35 AM   #116
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Quote:
Does Amnesty International have evidence of Palestinian armed groups, including Hamas, using civilians as human shields?
At this point, although our investigations are as yet far from complete, Amnesty International has more solid information on Israel's use of human shields. In a number of cases, we have found compelling evidence that Israeli soldiers who were deployed in Gaza entered and took up position in their homes of Palestinian civilians, forcing families to stay in a ground floor room while they use the rest of their house as a military base and sniper position, effectively using civilians as human shields. This practice has been common in the past eight years both in the Gaza Strip and in the West Bank. In a previous incursion into Gaza in March 2008, Israeli soldiers took over at least three houses in the north of the Gaza Strip. In February 2008 soldiers took over a house in the village of Beit Ummar, near Hebron, in the West Bank.

However, both Israeli soldiers and Palestinian gunmen have fired at each other from areas close to civilian homes, thereby endangering their inhabitants - such actions by both parties to the conflict can be considered unlawful attacks. Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups have also unlawfully endangered civilians in Gaza by firing rockets into Israel from densely populated residential areas.

Amnesty International has not confirmed media reports that Palestinian armed groups kept families in their houses while firing at Israeli soldiers from their homes

Palestinian families caught up in the recent fighting in the Gaza Strip report that in some cases Palestinian gunmen agreed to vacate areas near civilian homes without firing at Israeli forces when local residents objected to their presence. In other cases, however, Palestinian gunmen refused the residents' requests and only left after firing. In still other cases, residents say they were too scared to ask the gunmen to leave.
This is what I received in an email today from Amnesty International (who I'm a member of, apparently). It makes for interesting reading...
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Unread 01-28-2009, 08:38 AM   #117
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This is what I received in an email today from Amnesty International (who I'm a member of, apparently). It makes for interesting reading...
And its exactly what i've been saying...
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Unread 01-28-2009, 10:45 AM   #118
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If by "interesting" you mean "disgusting" then yes, very fcking interesting indeed.
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Unread 02-03-2009, 06:09 AM   #119
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Unread 02-10-2009, 09:02 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakaka
Those territorries were always conquered through war in the past. I can't see it stopping now or in any near future.

Why can those people conquer their land through war and Israel can't, even if it were in a counter-attack (6 Days War mainly)?
For two reasons.

1. Because land conquering was already considered to be a violation to international laws by 1962, whereas it wasn't as such back in the ancient times (obviously), when the arabs settled themselves on that region.

2. Because the mere creation of Israel was an unprecedent absurd. Installing a new country in the middle of another one, for fulfilling the desire of the western world of having an ally in the middle East, close to oil production?

Plus, are you even aware that there was no animosity at all between Islam and Jews before 1948? Hell, back in the middle times, arabs were tolerant to other religions in their own territories.

In one thing I agree with you: it's hard to envision peace in that place. The arabs will never accept illegally having lost their lands, and the Israeli won't simply move. Sad but true

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Unread 01-03-2010, 05:17 PM   #121
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Anyone else on this side of the pond saw Ross Kemp in Gaza on Sky One just now?

It's a year on and most of Gaza is still in rubble and Hamas is stronger than every by the looks of things.

They also met a 24 year old law graduate turned suicide bomber and several orphaned children who told some truly horrific stories. With that amount of pain I'd wager that they'd want revenge when they grow up. Hatred begets hatred after all...
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Unread 01-04-2010, 08:03 AM   #122
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That whole place is a mess. I would be careful to pick sides though, since neither of them are angels.

I mean, with the history of the place, it seems like 'God' really is a prankster, having fun with his worshipper's feeble minds:

1) It is the sacred state for his favourite people: the jews, who happened to throw out the other tribes of the old (philistines iirc), all according to their sacred scripture. Hey, god told them that it was ok!

2) It has the sacred town of Jerusalem, where the great temple of their king has been built, demolished, built again, and finally demolished again.

3) The very same city also happens to be a very holy for his son, Jesus and his followers, who were jews, but then decided not call themselves that, and prefered the term 'christians' instead. Anyhoo, it became holy for someone else than the jews.

4) Another fella, a warlord named Muhammed, who thinks that the jews and christians are quite silly, says that he has seen the truth and goes to heaven on the very same place as the original jewish temple itself. Nowadays, it is the place of a mosque, whoose name i have forgotten, but did the fella have to be such an ass and ascend to heaven on the very same place that was holy for some other guys? Quite a bad routine if you want my opinion. Anyhoo, the place became sacred for his followers: the islamists. Oh the joy, now there's three of them. What.a.mess.

5) Fast forward some years to the middle ages: The christians decide to toss away some of the passages of the new Testament(hint: the peace, love forgiveness and understanding-part) and raid around Jerusalem and the nearby area and liberate it from the Islamists. The followers of Islam seem however to be more rightouss, since they do not have that sissy "turn the other cheek"-blabla in their scripture. The finally win. The Jews lost anyway, since they didn't have any army. Many flee to Europe. Bad idea, since what is about to come.

6) The Ottoman times, muslims rule the land and the jews and christians have to pay a dhimmi-tax for thinking wrong about god. There's little resistance however, quite peaceful actually, since the ottomans would more than frown upon rebellion.

7) The british come in and abolish the dhimmi-tax and start taxing(=screwing) everyone equally instead. Claim to be christians, but shoot everyone equally in order to keep order. Some jews move back in.

8)The muslims do not appriciate the growing number of jews, i do not claim to know what the jews did to them, but if the mufti of Jerusalem goes to Berlin to have a chat with Hitler about it, then it had to be serious business.

9) Post WWII, 1948 to be exactly. The last 20-50 years have seen a steady rise of jews moving into the lands. I do not know who threw the first stone, but they seem NOT to like each other. Many jews have fled to the holy land lately, mainly due to the holocaust. The british have grown tired and are thinking about leaving, but now we have two factions(jews and muslims) claiming the land, meh. Well, atleast the christians seems to shut up at the moment, thank god for that.

10) It is still 1948 and there's more or less civil war between the two. The british say "sayonara", and the newly formed UN thinks up of a two-state solution. The jews seemed to be ok with it, but the arab nations said "na-ah". The jews ask the king of Jordan about the matter and he offers, what he thinks anyway, something generous: No jewish state, but you can have a ghetto in Jerusalem. The jews then say "na-ah" to the generous offer of his. Truman thinks that he has the right idea however, and supports an Israeli state. But ofcourse, he forgots to mention exactly where the state-lines should be drawn, and refuse to give any weapons to the jews. The jews say "yay!" and declare indepence on what they feel is their land. The Arabs say "nay!" and attack Israel. With the aid of French(!) weapons, the jews repell the arab states. They try again a couple of years later, but fail again. The jews keep some arabs, but throw out the rest. The palestinian nationalism is born. The christians in the land try to ignore them both.

Then, we have nowadays, with the Israeli occupation and overreactive violence to any threat (think Lebanon, a.k.a Israel's and Syria's bitch). The palestinians are ghettofied more or less, but it isn't exactly because they give the jews bad bank loans or alike. The neighbouring arab countries refuses to give the palestinians citizenship and abuse their status to further reinforce the conflict. The rage seems to pour on both sides of the fence, and considering the history of the region, goddammit what a mess. I simply refuse to take sides. The only thing that i know, is that peace will not come to the holy lands until everyone there want it.

I suggest that marijuana smoking should be the law there, Everyone above the age of 16 should smoke 4-5 blunts/day. Maybe that would make them cool down a bit. Relying on god is certainly not the answer.
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Unread 01-04-2010, 08:33 AM   #123
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Unread 01-04-2010, 08:50 AM   #124
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What Meshugger said
/rant

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Unread 01-04-2010, 08:52 AM   #125
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Everybody seems to like to soak that land in blood. One group gets it and forgets what the horrors the last group did to them felt like and it all repeats. No one deserves to have it.
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