[noodles]

Originally Posted by metalheadpunk

recent polling also still shows obama up 2.2 on mccain. so thats comforting.

Not really. Considering what a terrible job the GOP has done with the country the last seven and a half years, Obama should be up by about 22.2 points.

[metalheadpunk]

Originally Posted by noodles

Not really. Considering what a terrible job the GOP has done with the country the last seven and a half years, Obama should be up by about 22.2 points.

true. but with how many idiots there are who refuse to see the true colors of the GOP that's how it will be. one of my poly sci professors always said the most clever thing the GOP did in the last 20 years was trick middle and lower class voters into aligning with them over "moral issues" while screwing them on "real issues".

[YYZ2112]

I just hope Clinton doesn't hang around to take Obama down with her. This party is divided too much already and the last thing we need is this going on any longer than it has already.
I wanted throw a shoe at the TV last night when she came out for her speech and said it's on to Washington now when it was still in doubt that she had even won Indiana. I realize she has to spin all this negative to a positive but it's over and this madness needs to end.

[urklvt]

Originally Posted by noodles

I've been having this growing feeling that she is going to royally fuck everything up, split the party in half, and hand that nimrod McCain the White House.

That's exactly what I've been thinking, but I think the damage might already be done. This fight has gone on too long. From the beginning it hasn't been about getting the GOP out of the white house, but getting her and Bill back in. The Dems lose more ground every day this fight goes on.

[Randy]

Originally Posted by metalheadpunk

the most clever thing the GOP did in the last 20 years was trick middle and lower class voters into aligning with them over "moral issues" while screwing them on "real issues".

Good point. I remember all those videos from 2004, of people in middle American states/town where all the jobs moved out, their families were getting killed in Iraq wholesale, and they couldn't afford healthcare. And what'd they all say? "I'm voting for George Bush, because he's a good Christian man and he represents good Christian values."

It seems like a lot of that illusion has eroded though. I'm sure a lot of it is still around, as the "Obooma is a Muslim, can't say the pledge of allegiance, swore in on the Quoran (sp?), and is hiding that he's really a terrorist" argument has actually held water in a lot of these small towns. Really unfortunate. But, hopefully, enough people have either acquired some common sense, or enough "new voters" have enough common sense to offset that. This time, at least.

[metalheadpunk]

Originally Posted by Randy

Good point. I remember all those videos from 2004, of people in middle American states/town where all the jobs moved out, their families were getting killed in Iraq wholesale, and they couldn't afford healthcare. And what'd they all say? "I'm voting for George Bush, because he's a good Christian man and he represents good Christian values."

It seems like a lot of that illusion has eroded though. I'm sure a lot of it is still around, as the "Obooma is a Muslim, can't say the pledge of allegiance, swore in on the Quoran (sp?), and is hiding that he's really a terrorist" argument has actually held water in a lot of these small towns. Really unfortunate. But, hopefully, enough people have either acquired some common sense, or enough "new voters" have enough common sense to offset that. This time, at least.

it'd have to be the new voters thing. these people haven't acquired anything and sure as hell aren't switching party affiliation can't figure it out but it isn't happening

[Drew]

I think that strong clevage amongst Clinton supporters not wanting to vote for Obama over McCain will change once Clinton is out and the two have to start campaigning against each other.

Honestly, three weeks ago I was still saying how I'd seriously consider voting for McCain over Clinton myself, as an Obama supporter, if Obama lost. Then I got onto the subject of some of McCains economic and health care positions with a buddy of mine, tossing emails back and forth at work, and realized that I didn't know very much about his positions. So I did some work.

I very quickly realized that if it came down to Clinton/McCain, as much as I do respect McCain on a personal level and dislike Clinton on a personal level, I'd vote for Clinton. I'd be a moron not to. McCain is in favor of making Bush's temporary tax cuts, which he voted against, permanent, at a time when our tax rates are at historic lows and our deficit is spiraling out of control. He's in favor of staying in Iraq indefinitely, and he's taking swipes at Iran. And his health care policy, without going too far into specifics, contradicts his high-level stance about costs being out of control (which I gave him credit for) and is on top of that just very poorly thought out, and would do more harm than good I suspect.

Clinton I dislike. However, in terms of policy, there's not much she's pledging to do that would be even remotely as damaging as McCain's economic policy. Clinton may be annoying, but I'll take annoyance over national insolvency, you know?

Those numbers are going to change in a big way between now and November, provided the Democratic party has enough time to remind voters just how different McCain's stance is from Hillary's and Barack's.

[YYZ2112]

Originally Posted by Randy

It seems like a lot of that illusion has eroded though. I'm sure a lot of it is still around, as the "Obooma is a Muslim, can't say the pledge of allegiance, swore in on the Quoran (sp?), and is hiding that he's really a terrorist" argument has actually held water in a lot of these small towns. Really unfortunate. But, hopefully, enough people have either acquired some common sense, or enough "new voters" have enough common sense to offset that. This time, at least.

It's so sad and very scary that we have so many ignorant people in this country AND that they could hand this election over to another Republican after the last eight years.

For the first time in my adult life I see some light at the end of tunnel with Obama and to know that it could actually be derailed by people who believe such bullshit is sickening.

[noodles]

Originally Posted by Randy

Good point. I remember all those videos from 2004, of people in middle American states/town where all the jobs moved out, their families were getting killed in Iraq wholesale, and they couldn't afford healthcare. And what'd they all say? "I'm voting for George Bush, because he's a good Christian man and he represents good Christian values."

Those are the people who need to just stay home in November, because they are too stupid to vote. My fiance's mother is one of them. She refuses to vote for a Democrat because they support abortion, even though she barely makes ends meet, can't afford to save money for retirement, and declared bankruptcy during Dubya's tenure in office. She was a single mother, and cannot see that Republicans have held her back every single step of the way. It took me six years of him in office to convince her that Bush is a bad Christian.

What is really scary is that if McCain wins, he will be more than likely appointing three new Supreme Court justices, two of whom will be replacing liberals. When that happens, look for every pro-life group under the sun to find a reason to get Roe vs Wade in front of the high court, making us the only industrialized nation in the 21st century that does not grant women the rights over their own bodies. That is just the beginning of the kind of havoc that a 7-2 slanted court could wreak. Imagine them looking at corporate regulation or civil rights.

[metalheadpunk]

Originally Posted by Drew

I think that strong clevage amongst Clinton supporters not wanting to vote for Obama over McCain will change once Clinton is out and the two have to start campaigning against each other.



Those numbers are going to change in a big way between now and November, provided the Democratic party has enough time to remind voters just how different McCain's stance is from Hillary's and Barack's.

any true democrats will quickly realize voting for mccain would be ridiculous