[Mastodon]

Meh, I think it's interstesting no matter how you look at it. It's interesting to ponder over, but it's nothing to get riled up about.

[noodles]

Originally Posted by shadowgenesis

INoodles, I just wanted to say that i'm a bit disappointed in you for the way you commented. You've always come across to me as a reasonable person who doesn't let himself get carried away in honest discussion, but you just slammed Jeff in aggressive manner AND made a real ignorant stereotype about the artist - both actions which i had thought would be beneath you, man. You also came off as pretty self-righteous by having to cite all the things you've done for stray animals to make your argument.

Originally Posted by JBroll

You all fail. Please, think before regurgitating what random-assed two-faced 'animal-rights activists' try to get you sign...

Jeff

Maybe that makes it a bit clearer to you. Since Jeff made it a point of coming in and insulting everyone, I called a spade a spade. And for what it's worth, I'm not trying to come off as self-righteous by listing a bunch of volunteer work I've done. I've tried to outline the differences between productive ways to volunteer, and unproductive ways. Kind of like the difference between the American Human Society and PETA.

Frankly, I don't appreciate you trying to lecture me or accuse me of being self-righteous. I was not the one who set the tone for this thread, and when someone simply dismisses a cause that is near and dear to my heart as the regurgitation of two-faced animal activist, I get a bit perturbed. Royally pissed off would be a better way of putting it.

Jeff, while i am for the most part in agreement with you - at least to the degree that i think people are making unfortunately uninformed assumptions - i think you could take further steps to be more articulate and less irate in what you write. I particularly would like to cite your references to biased media and talking about credible sources. I think, for discussions sake, you aren't making a clear enough point about what makes these sources credible or not, so that from a 3rd person perspective, you come across as one of those raving conspiracy theorist types that's always yelling about propaganda. While i myself may be very much of the same mindset, i think it's important to keep in mind how your communicating things because you're talking with people who don't all see the world through your eyes.

So, are you just going to be taking over mod duties for the rest of the day?

[Chris]

Originally Posted by shadowgenesis

Once again, after all this discussion, i would like to try and re-emphasize that I believe all this discussion of Guillermo Vargas as a person is trivial. Whether or not he's an asshole or righteous - he STILL exposed a major double-standard in people's ethics and nobody is addressing that. You know what - if this guy is in fact just an asshole who doesn't really care about animals and he did just put that dog out on the street to die... It doesn't matter.

My point has always been the following: Chaining a scared, starving dog to a wall to be gawked at in a fucking museum/art gallery with no food or water makes you an asshole.

It's not a major double standard in anything. It's a dickbag being controversial for the sake of being controversial, and going about it the wrong way.

Guess what? There are assholes in the world. and plenty of selfish dirtbags. In all fairness, unless you plan on being a vigilante head-hunter and want to kill this guy, you're wasting your breath arguing about whether or not he's a douchebag. I think the more important factor in what Jeff has to offer in the conversation is that the media is making the whole situation about the short-comings of one man, rather than the short-comings of a society.

It's a discussion forum full of my friends. I'm not wasting my time or my breath, I'm discussing something with people I know. I don't care what the media, or anyone else for that matter, thinks about the guy. I think he's a fucking asshole. Jeff assumes that any post relating to anything is a private crusade to garner attention and change the world. In reality, I'm just expressing my opinion that this guy sucks, and should be clubbed in the balls.

[JBroll]

There's a big difference between 'dickbag' and 'there's more to the story than the petition wants you to think' but if I was out of line with 'you fail' (which I, being the total nerd I am, don't take as an insult myself) then I apologize.

As far as my political agenda and how everything is a private crusade... I think the guy is doing something new and potentially very effective, therefore I'm Karl Rove? I'm not following why you had to bring in my 'politically charged crusading' or why Dave decided to make some reference to a nonexistent book on the free market.

Jeff

[Drew]

Here's the way I see it:

Activism starts at home. If you think it's wrong that people ignore dogs starving on the street, then what sort of moral authority do you have to preach to others about how no one is doing anything about the plight of these animals unless you do something yourself? Now, of course you can say that "but he did do something! He brought this dog inside and gave it just enough food and water to survive!" To which I'd counter, one, that he didn't give it enough of either to not look like it wasn't still starving to death, and two, at the end of the exhibit period, he "allowed the dog to escape." Not fed it and nursed it back into help and put it in the hands of a foster family, but let it go back to the same evils that his exhibit was originally intended to fight.

So, effectively he's saying, "it's wrong and we're bad people because we ignore starving dogs. To prove this point, I'll take a starving dog off the streets, feed it just enough so it won't die, and then put it back out on the streets when I'm done so that it can go back to being a starving dog that everyone can ignore, and enjoy the fat royalty check I got from this exhibition."

I'd be less inclined to call him a self-serving jackass if he took care of the dog at the end of the period, but instead he just perpetrated the very same evil he was allledgedly fighting. Fuck him.

[noodles]

Ask yourself if it would be any different if you saw this chained inside of the museum:



It's not any different. It is still a living thing, starving to death.

[shadowgenesis]

Originally Posted by noodles

I'm not trying to come off as self-righteous by listing a bunch of volunteer work I've done.

i don't think anyone tries to appear self righteous. I was just saying that's how it could easily perceived. I was just trying to be objective.

Originally Posted by noodles

So, are you just going to be taking over mod duties for the rest of the day?

i was just trying to offer some constructive commentary to turn the conversation away from just being people throwing insults at eachother. It had nothing to do with forum rules and regulations. It's just what i had to offer to the discussion.




As for the argument that there are better ways of accomplishing what he wanted to do, I would be hard-pressed to believe that. There are always people out there doing their part in public service to try and get the public to notice the kinds of problems we have in the world, whether it be the AIDS epidemic or the suffering of stray animals on the streets. There is merit in that, and I would never say that traditional methods aren't worth trying, but I think the amount of public attention this incident has gotten alone stands to show it's effectiveness.

For me the question is whether or not the ends justified the means. I guess everybody else doesn't think so, but I'm not really sure how I feel about it.

[Leon]

as it turns out, i went to Chipotle today for lunch. as i sat there, i started reading the text on the cup. it was one of those "people we're proud to know" things. anyways, it was all about this guy Bernie Rollin. apparently, he was a front-runner for the ethical treatment of animals, and one of his seminars inspired the Chipotle founder (who started his biz in Colorado) to only buy meat from family farms that treat their animals well, feeding them a vegetarian diet with no hormones or antibiotics.

read about him for yourself:
Colorado State University - News & Information

[Chris]

Originally Posted by JBroll

There's a big difference between 'dickbag' and 'there's more to the story than the petition wants you to think' but if I was out of line with 'you fail' (which I, being the total nerd I am, don't take as an insult myself) then I apologize.

As far as my political agenda and how everything is a private crusade... I think the guy is doing something new and potentially very effective, therefore I'm Karl Rove? I'm not following why you had to bring in my 'politically charged crusading' or why Dave decided to make some reference to a nonexistent book on the free market.

Jeff

Because you're being a dickbag, dickbag.

[JBroll]

So THAT's why I post in P&CE once in a blue moon in hopes that maybe I can have an opinion and not be the bastard child of Dick Cheney and Pol Pot...

Jeff