[drshock]

I've known about this for years but its nice to spread the knowledge anyway.


PETA= People eating tasty animals

[shadowgenesis]

Originally Posted by NegaTiveXero

It costs $50 to adopt a cat or dog, it costs tens of thousands of dollars, in some cases, to adopt a child. Don't try to fucking compare them.

Having your own child is not a fucking ego thing. It's absolute bullshit. If you want to bring a new life into the world, it doesn't fucking matter what your reasoning is, it's your fucking right.

chill bro. i didn't mean it to be such an offensive thing. I didn't mean that people shouldn't have the right to have children. I don't think there's anything to argue in saying that if you want to bring a new life into the world, you're doing it for your own satisfaction, which is what i meant by serving your ego. If you want to argue with me that you want to have children that are of your own flesh and blood for some other legitimate reason (to better humankind?) then i'm all ears. I'm not trying to demonize people for wanting to have children of their own. I do - and i'm pretty much against the idea of having kids (myself) entirely.

Originally Posted by Xaios

Just because someone that I've never met was too dumb to control his sexual urges and have children that he shouldn't have had, doesn't mean I should be forced to counterbalance his mistakes and never have my own.

Jesus. You don't think that's a bit of a cold way to look at it? I mean i'm not trying to tell you to adopt kids. It's not an agenda of mine. But regardless who's kids they are, they're still human beings and i care about them, and they're kids who are in a terrible situation because of something that was completely beyond their control. What you said came off as a kind of cruel "fuck you" to them the way i read it.

[NegaTiveXero]

Originally Posted by shadowgenesis

chill bro. i didn't mean it to be such an offensive thing. I didn't mean that people shouldn't have the right to have children. I don't think there's anything to argue in saying that if you want to bring a new life into the world, you're doing it for your own satisfaction, which is what i meant by serving your ego. If you want to argue with me that you want to have children that are of your own flesh and blood for some other legitimate reason (to better humankind?) then i'm all ears. I'm not trying to demonize people for wanting to have children of their own. I do - and i'm pretty much against the idea of having kids (myself) entirely.

Yes, you are.

There are plenty of reasons to have kids that nothing to do with the human ego. That's like saying animals have children to build their ego, they don't exactly understand the concept of an ego, much less feel the need to stroke it. You kind of need to have children to continue your race (be you human, cat, or any other being), you know that whole extinction thing, I'd like to put it off one more generation by having some children and, at the same time, raising them to better the world.

As much as I hate to use this example, it's a good one: hardcore Catholics. They have children simply because they believe that when they have sex they should, because that's what god wants.

It's not vain to want to have children. I'm having a daughter soon and I sure as hell didn't do it because I wanted to gloat to other people and be like, "Yeah, check it out, I spread my seed. I'm so much better than you". Me and my wife did it because we just felt that it was time, we want a family.

[Desecrated]

Originally Posted by Adam

I like this one the best:

I'm actually thinking of ordering the shirt with this from Maddox's site

hahahahaha, I need one of those.

[PeteyG]

Originally Posted by NegaTiveXero

It's not vain to want to have children. I'm having a daughter soon and I sure as hell didn't do it because I wanted to gloat to other people and be like, "Yeah, check it out, I spread my seed. I'm so much better than you". Me and my wife did it because we just felt that it was time, we want a family.

I think what he meant by ego is what's meant in very much a buddhist manner (only way I've heard it put), we all live for our ego, to satisfy that ego and to live happily with our ego, not what's now known as ego as yearning to better other people and feeling better than others.

I hope to have kids one day, because I wish to have a family successfully with the woman I love and so as to bring up children to get through in this pretty fucking tough world, that would satisfy my ego, it would fulfill a dream for my life and would keep me happy in what I want in life, that is what I would mean by 'satisfying my ego'.

And you have my best wishes for your daughter to be man congratulations.

[shadowgenesis]

Alright. You're taking the word ego out of context. I didn't mean ego in the sense of being full of yourself. It's not about bragging.

I really don't think it's necessary for you to get so heated about this. I think you misunderstood my meaning and you're taking this way too personally. Maybe ego wasn't really the word i was looking for. Maybe i'm talking about the id?? I dunno.

As far as wanting to have children as part of instinct, I kinda think that's a difficult point to argue. We don't live in a world governed by animal instinct. As a race we need to reproduce to survive, but as individuals we are all consciously aware of the fact the the human race is not going to go extinct because we as individuals choose not to have a child. When you decided to have a daughter did you really think to yourself "if I don't have a child, who will?"
If anything the instinctive need to reproduce to further our own bloodlines is exactly what I was referring to when i talked about satisfying our egos. I know full well that if I don't have children, that life on this earth as I know it will continue on. Theoretically, there is no reason for me to breed then, right? Except i still want to. I still want to know if they'd look like me, or have some of the same personality traits or if i'd be a fun dad. So my logical reason for wanting to have children is self-serving in that sense.

You just said yourself that you're reason for having a daughter is because you "want a family." Like if you were a millionaire and adopting a child was a simple as the snap of a finger and there was no paperwork and no trouble and no worries about costs and all this kind of stuff, would you adopt or would you choose birth your own child?

Originally Posted by Anthony

Hes saying (I think) that Christianity started out as a good thing, but as more people joined they manipulated it into something corrupt. I don't think this is just another mindless "fuck christianity" comment.

nailed it man. Seriously, I'm a big fan of religion on a individual level and in recent months I've really found myself relating a lot to some devout Christians (to my surprise). I've always been at odds with organized religion, because i think the very concept of organized religion is flawed - and that's a whole other can of beans i'm not opening, because it's not something I'd want to tackle in text.

I'm sorry if that read wrong.

Originally Posted by PeteyG

I think what he meant by ego is what's meant in very much a buddhist manner (only way I've heard it put), we all live for our ego, to satisfy that ego and to live happily with our ego, not what's now known as ego as yearning to better other people and feeling better than others.

I hope to have kids one day, because I wish to have a family successfully with the woman I love and so as to bring up children to get through in this pretty fucking tough world, that would satisfy my ego, it would fulfill a dream for my life and would keep me happy in what I want in life, that is what I would mean by 'satisfying my ego'.

thank you for helping clarify my point, Pete

[Xaios]

Originally Posted by shadowgenesis

Jesus. You don't think that's a bit of a cold way to look at it? I mean i'm not trying to tell you to adopt kids. It's not an agenda of mine. But regardless who's kids they are, they're still human beings and i care about them, and they're kids who are in a terrible situation because of something that was completely beyond their control. What you said came off as a kind of cruel "fuck you" to them the way i read it.

Apparently both of us have a way of misunderstanding each other.

I never said I don't sympathize with these kids, and it's strange of you to assume that's what I meant. I of course think that the plight of these kids is terrible. But the way you make things sound, I should have to give up my right to have children of my own because of their situation. It would be like spaying my dog and then forcing her to rear a litter of puppies that I randomly brought home off the street one day. She probably wouldn't be too impressed. The only people I will say "fuck you" to are the ones who would force me to act generously in a certain way instead of letting me do so by my own accord, in my own way, or who would try and guilt me into such a thing.

[shadowgenesis]

did i really come off as trying to be the moral police of the world in what i said? I'm sorry it came across like that.
I wasn't out to guilt anyone. I was just trying to play the devil's advocate for a second, to keep the discussion fair, as no PETA members are here to argue their side of the story.
Believe me, I'm an animal lover myself and i'm not defending the organization - I'm really not taking a side at all. I personally don't trust a lot of mass media to be unbiased and reasonable, so I'm aversed to the idea of people reading one news story and immediately saying "Fuck PETA", because I just don't trust that story to be a fair and comprehensive representation of the facts.


that makes sense, doesn't it???

[NegaTiveXero]

Originally Posted by shadowgenesis

Alright. You're taking the word ego out of context. I didn't mean ego in the sense of being full of yourself. It's not about bragging.

I really don't think it's necessary for you to get so heated about this. I think you misunderstood my meaning and you're taking this way too personally. Maybe ego wasn't really the word i was looking for. Maybe i'm talking about the id?? I dunno.

As far as wanting to have children as part of instinct, I kinda think that's a difficult point to argue. We don't live in a world governed by animal instinct. As a race we need to reproduce to survive, but as individuals we are all consciously aware of the fact the the human race is not going to go extinct because we as individuals choose not to have a child. When you decided to have a daughter did you really think to yourself "if I don't have a child, who will?"
If anything the instinctive need to reproduce to further our own bloodlines is exactly what I was referring to when i talked about satisfying our egos. I know full well that if I don't have children, that life on this earth as I know it will continue on. Theoretically, there is no reason for me to breed then, right? Except i still want to. I still want to know if they'd look like me, or have some of the same personality traits or if i'd be a fun dad. So my logical reason for wanting to have children is self-serving in that sense.

You just said yourself that you're reason for having a daughter is because you "want a family." Like if you were a millionaire and adopting a child was a simple as the snap of a finger and there was no paperwork and no trouble and no worries about costs and all this kind of stuff, would you adopt or would you choose birth your own child?

You may not think you're talking about ego the way I am, but you portraying it that way. I'm not taking this personally, dude. Like I said in the PM, it's a discussion. You compared child adoption to pet adoption and I objected, that's how it works.

Now, for the bold part. That's a completely circumstantial, unlikely (about impossible) situation. That's like saying, your favorite color is blue, but if I told you that red looked blue, would it be your favorite color? Doesn't make much sense, either, does it?

As for an answer to that question. I would not adopt. I would have my own child. This sounds cruel, but I don't feel like it's my responsibility to make up for another's mistake. I know these children need help and I'd gladly help them with contributions, etc..., but it'd never be the same. How can someone live with not ever telling their own child that they're not related to them? Or if you do tell them, what's to say they won't go ape-shit and feel abandoned and go looking for their birth parents?

Having a kid, is not a simple choice. When I said I "wanted a family", that's the simple watered down form, there's much more to it. You're not a woman, neither am I, so we'll never understand why women go on I N S T I N C T (remember that thing we're not governed by), and start feeling like they need to have children. I, as a man, when she made her decision, made the decision that I was ready to raise a child and to have a family.

[Xaios]

Originally Posted by shadowgenesis

did i really come off as trying to be the moral police of the world in what i said? I'm sorry it came across like that.
I wasn't out to guilt anyone. I was just trying to play the devil's advocate for a second, to keep the discussion fair, as no PETA members are here to argue their side of the story.
Believe me, I'm an animal lover myself and i'm not defending the organization - I'm really not taking a side at all. I personally don't trust a lot of mass media to be unbiased and reasonable, so I'm aversed to the idea of people reading one news story and immediately saying "Fuck PETA", because I just don't trust that story to be a fair and comprehensive representation of the facts.


that makes sense, doesn't it???

Yes it does, you just went a little overboard. Defending a group which isn't around to defend itself is a reasonably noble pursuit, but you must remember that a fair and balanced perspective must factor in all views, including those of the media. As a devout christian, people still seem to blame me personally for the crusades on a regular basis, even though my affiliation to the groups truly responsible for the atrocities committed therein is flimsy at best. I can't say I don't resent it, but the fair and balanced perspective says that, in this day and age, that's a risk I run. There are undoubtly some very noble people working somewhere amongst the machinations of PETA, but like all the rest of us, if there is no scapegoat, then blame will be laid evenly.