[Drew]

Originally Posted by Jongpil Yun

Sorry dude, but that's one of the biggest BS stereotypes I've run across -- the Asian who can calculate but can't create. That shit goes all the way back to the 1700s, when Asians were said to possess incredible imitating ability as an explanation for the advanced Chinese culture when it was generally accepted at the time that everyone but Whites were intellectually inferior. Read the story about "Mongolian Idiocy" (now known as Down's Syndrome or trisomy 21) to see what I mean. It's right up there with the old myth about how Asians have a higher mean but lower variance in the population of IQs.

All I can say, man, is I'm going off myfirsthand observations in India and conversations with my roommate on her observations teaching in Korea.

I think it's also worth noting that we're looking at it from two different perspectives - you, race, and me, educational systems as a product of cultural values. I wouldn't expect the same to hold true for anyone who'd been educated in an American school system, and in fact my experience in grade school, high school, and college bears this out.

Likewise, at least in India I can say that there are a handful of truely world class schools where this is most certainly not the case. However, the problem there is if you're graduating from an university that's actually passed the national accredidation standards (which are volentary - less than ten percent even apply, and most who do do poorly - here I'm quoting an Indian newspaper who happened to run a story on this while I was out there. Yet, everyone wants a degree and you basically need a master's for even an entry level finance or IT job, so it's a seller's market - tons of demand for degrees, no standards to meet), then you're options are such that you have an opportnity to make a much better living by leaving the country than staying domestically, so that really has no bearing on the average educational background of the average Indian MBA holder within the country.

Either way, let me reiterate - by "asian" I'm referring not to the asian "race" or anything, but rather the continent of asia and its respective school systems. My specific experience ws in India, though my roommate spent a year teaching English in Korea and her observations were in line with mine. There is considerable pressure put on students to demonstrate progress in quantitatively measurable ways, and little to none to do so in more abstract realms. Hence, strong memorization and numbers crunching skills, less in terms of formal logic and abstract thought. This has nothing to do with genetics - this is solely the product of the way the education system is being structured and what sort of knowledge is being held in high regard.

I'm sorry if you find my saying this offensive, but asian school systems are no better than ours - they're just fucked in different ways. I'm not sure if you're asian yourself and that's why you're taking offense, or just a bit more prickly about PC issues than I am, but I can't stress enough that this is strictly a nurture and not a nature issue.

EDIT - and really, should this come as any surprise? If we start moving thousands of american jobs to India and China that require next to no creative thought but lots of process execution ability, then should you really be shocked to see that suddenly the schools in these countries are pushing the very skills that make them desireable for low cost labor? Part of it is cultural pressures, sure, but part of it is also supply and demand.

[Jongpil Yun]

Either way, let me reiterate - by "asian" I'm referring not to the asian "race" or anything, but rather the continent of asia and its respective school systems.

I wasn't implying you were. Personally, it makes me sick when people brag about what race they are, or leap to defend their race from any kind of perceived criticism.

Originally Posted by Drew

I'm sorry if you find my saying this offensive, but asian school systems are no better than ours - they're just fucked in different ways. I'm not sure if you're asian yourself and that's why you're taking offense, or just a bit more prickly about PC issues than I am, but I can't stress enough that this is strictly a nurture and not a nature issue.

I'm saying nothing of the sort. PCness be damned, I'm saying your basic premise is wrong. School systems throughout east Asia ARE better than here in the US, right up until the University level, which America still dominates. The best students emigrate to the US or Europe for their higher education, and return to their home country for a job, typically. That's changing now, but it's been the typical pattern for a while now.

I'll say it flat out too, that in my estimation, C/J/K cultures are disgustingly homogeneous and encourage the kind of sheep-like behavior that is a fascist's wet dream.

If you read the methodology of the PISA survey by the OECD, which is largely what I'm going off of here, true, there's a big emphasis on mathematics, but there are also problem solving, science, and reading sections. The point is, you're mainly targeting Asian school systems, but what about the other top performers? Do you think Finland (#1, IIRC), the Netherlands, Norway, etc. are also the same, or are you still going to insist that the US school system is better than theirs?

Also, I'm only half Asian, so I have no real attachment to the title. Most people can't even identify what race I am -- I've heard anything from Mexican to Native American (the correct answer would be "mixed", I guess). I was raised in the US, though I've spent a fair amount of time in Korea and Japan, but I consider myself firmly American, with no bullshit about my British ancestral roots or what have you. I am who I am, and sure, population statistics can make fairly accurate predictions about me given my race(s), such as that I shouldn't be expected to have sickle cell or Tay-Sachs, and that I'd probably have a 1-3 IQ point advantage over my peers, but that has really no bearing on my individual identity, and I regularly talk about Asians and Whites as if they had nothing to do with me, because, in all honesty, I feel like they don't.

[The Dark Wolf]

You guys are actually debating about Asian vs. US school systems. School systems.




*Goes back to playing guitar*
Who's brilliant?

[arnoroth661]

Originally Posted by drshock

haha ok, well I'll agree with you on that. The thing is I'm 18 years of age! Most people my age are idiots that never look beyond what the news tells them let alone look at the news period. It's kind of disturbing because I consider myself a lazy underachieving musician, and society would view me that way as well.

However, I consider myself WAY more intelligent than a lot of people my age who are getting good grades in college going out to be an engineer of some sort just because my mind isnt so closed to what the media says it needs to be.

I find myself in the same situation.

[drshock]

Originally Posted by arnoroth661

I find myself in the same situation.

Yeah I know it's kind of ridiculous.

[Bound]

I'm a 4th year electrical apprentice and I make about the same as my GF who's towing a BS in Biology, and I'm not even finished with my blue collar schoolin' Glad I'm not toting around student loans!

I find it funny because my parents put such a huge emphasis on me going to college and 'getting somewhere', though I seem to be getting along just fine without out.

So if you don't mind rolling up your sleeves a bit, there's some money to be made, especially in a whole generation of people who've gone to college, there's very few new people who are going to maintain the service industry.

... and of course if you play your cards right in college, you'll probably do just fine. Though you'll probably either need to specialize in something, or definately go on to grad school. Most people who go and just go through the motions don't realize that it'll only take them so far. That's why I left after a year... I said to myself " what the hell am I going to do with my degree, get a job at home depot or something, f that!"

[Zepp88]

This is why I didn't bother going to college.

And I'm making good money for a person my age ATM..

[noodles]

Originally Posted by Jongpil Yun

I'm saying nothing of the sort. PCness be damned, I'm saying your basic premise is wrong. School systems throughout east Asia ARE better than here in the US, right up until the University level, which America still dominates. The best students emigrate to the US or Europe for their higher education, and return to their home country for a job, typically. That's changing now, but it's been the typical pattern for a while now.

I completely disagree with the back half of your analysis of this situation. True, many of the Asian countries have a far better education system than we due, right up to the university level. The problem is they are NOT moving back home from America. This has reached a critical mass in practically every non-industrialized nation, especially in the field of medicine. America's economic system is funneling the best and brightest away from the third world, virtually assuring that those countries will never progress beyond their current point. I don't think of it is a malicious thing--their isn't some shadowy "they" who are actively recruiting talent--since any sane individual is going to think of himself first, then his immediate family back home. Why even go back home, when life is so much better here.

Why do you think countries like China and Russia kept such a tight rein on their people for so long? They couldn't afford to have their talent literally walk out of the country and never return. They couldn't even afford them travel, since I'm sure the US government could see it in their hearts to offer political asylum to an estranged Russian nuclear scientist, don't you? The Chinese would literally hold family members captive, under threat of death, in order to get their citizens to return home.

If anything, the advent of globalization in this decade has given many a reason to stay in their countries of birth. Why should a doctor come to America now? They would have to deal with being a salaried employee of some large HMO, bound to all sorts of financial restrictions that dictate how he practice medicine. It's better now to stay home, especially when countries like India and China are popping up metropolises like they got a discount on them at Wall-mart.