[Jongpil Yun]

Originally Posted by TotallyBr00tal

Ok most of these things you mention were already fucked up when he was elected so those dont count and as for the abuse of presidential power how, Congress voted for the War.

Which ones? And his abuse of power? Please, if you don't know, you need to do some reading. His ridiculous "signing statements", his wiretapping program, rampant cronyism, hell, there's probably a lot more I can't remember or simply don't know about. No one since Lincoln (or maybe FDR) has grabbed so much power as president, and Lincoln had a damn good reason. And, he went to congress to ask for the temporary suspension of habeas corpus, with a well defined ending point.

I Don't know if this is true but at the same time these religous institutions do a lot of good for their local communities such as providing food for the poor, clothing donations, helping with education, housing projects, scholarships for colleges and I could go on here, so thats a bad thing and after all this is "One Nation Under GOD"

Secular institutions do just as good a job, and in the case of a lot of things like oh say, sexual education, much better. And I'll have you know that "one nation under god" was added to the pledge of allegiance (a disgusting habit anyways, I think) during the red scare in the '50s, as was "In God We Trust" on the dollar, which replaced "e pluribus unum". You're standing on shaky ground.This nation was not founded in God's name, it was founded in the name of liberty.

[garcia3441]

Originally Posted by TotallyBr00tal

Ok most of these things you mention were already fucked up when he was elected so those dont count and as for the abuse of presidential power how, Congress voted for the War.

Based on cherry-picked intel. provided by the White House.


As for abuse of power; I'll start with the domestic spying program and work from there.

[TotallyBr00tal]

Originally Posted by Jongpil Yun

Which ones? And his abuse of power? Please, if you don't know, you need to do some reading. His ridiculous "signing statements", his wiretapping program, rampant cronyism, hell, there's probably a lot more I can't remember or simply don't know about. No one since Lincoln (or maybe FDR) has grabbed so much power as president, and Lincoln had a damn good reason. And, he went to congress to ask for the temporary suspension of habeas corpus, with a well defined ending point.



Secular institutions do just as good a job, and in the case of a lot of things like oh say, sexual education, much better. And I'll have you know that "one nation under god" was added to the pledge of allegiance (a disgusting habit anyways, I think) during the red scare in the '50s, as was "In God We Trust" on the dollar, which replaced "e pluribus unum". You're standing on shaky ground.This nation was not founded in God's name, it was founded in the name of liberty.

Shaky ground dude the founders of this country were religous and believed in God strongly. As for the Pledge of allegiance being disgusting get out bro, your a disgrace for saying that, this is what I am trying to get at the fact that people do not believe in this country anymore with all these liberal retarded ideas. As for the wiretapping, you have something to hide bro your planning something. I would rather have wiretapping than go to work one day and have a fuckin plane blow it up, ok bro.

[ohio_eric]

I wouldn't say Bush has ruined the world so much because most of it now just fears or laughs at us. What Bush has done is fuck up our standing in the world.

Once America was the world's last superpower. We had a strong economy, we were looked as strong moral nation who inspired oppresed people to fight for freedom.

Now we're seen as thugs who invade nations without provokation and torture our prisoners and deny them basic human rights.

Our once strong economy is now in shambles. The dollar is falling. Bush has borrowed over a trillion dollars from foreign sources which is more than the previous 42 presidents combined.

This war has crippled our military and killed over 3800 Americans and wounded over 25000 more and killed God only knows how many Iraqis for no good reason.

Bush is easily the worst president ever and will probably be viewed as one of the worst world leaders ever.

[Jongpil Yun]

Originally Posted by TotallyBr00tal

Shaky ground dude the founders of this country were religous and believed in God strongly.

Many of them were deists. Many at times espoused what amounted to atheistic views, but at the time, it was common practice to ally yourself with the church regardless of whether you believed it or not. Look at how many people today claim to be Christian but probably don't even give a damn or go to church.

As for the Pledge of allegiance being disgusting get out bro, your a disgrace for saying that, this is what I am trying to get at the fact that people do not believe in this country anymore with all these liberal retarded ideas.

The pledge of allegiance always struck me as the kind of blind patriotism and jingoistic brainwashing that makes it so easy to keep all the trappings of patriotism with none of the substance. IMO, it's something you should do once, at 18+. Think of how much significance it has to the majority of people. Hell, think of how many people think it's "invisible, under god". You want to show you love your country? Do what's best for it, instead of buying magnetic ribbons to throw on your car and hanging a 20 foot flag. Educate yourself and vote.

As for the wiretapping, you have something to hide bro your planning something. I would rather have wiretapping than go to work one day and have a fuckin plane blow it up, ok bro.

Oh forgive his fascist tendencies, Allah, for he knows not what he says.

I think I should elaborate here.

Will the wiretapping shit save lives? Probably. Will torturing people at gitmo to extract information and confessions save lives? Probably. Do I give a damn? No. Freedom, transparency, and liberty are what we stand for. If we abandon those things for the pretense of safety, we have lost what it means to be America.

Originally Posted by Benjamin Franklin

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

Originally Posted by Talib Kweli

Those who would trade in their freedom for their protection deserve neither.

[TotallyBr00tal]

Originally Posted by ohio_eric

I wouldn't say Bush has ruined the world so much because most of it now just fears or laughs at us. What Bush has done is fuck up our standing in the world.

Once America was the world's last superpower. We had a strong economy, we were looked as strong moral nation who inspired oppresed people to fight for freedom.

Now we're seen as thugs who invade nations without provokation and torture our prisoners and deny them basic human rights.

Our once strong economy is now in shambles. The dollar is falling. Bush has borrowed over a trillion dollars from foreign sources which is more than the previous 42 presidents combined.

This war has crippled our military and killed over 3800 Americans and wounded over 25000 more and killed God only knows how many Iraqis for no good reason.

Bush is easily the worst president ever and will probably be viewed as one of the worst world leaders ever.

torture prisoners, what about the terrorists cutting prisoners heads off and filming it thats not bad huh wow the U.S. is so bad man. Our country has slowly become weak because of sissy liberal idiots like you twisting peoples minds with foolish ideals.

[garcia3441]

Originally Posted by ohio_eric

Now we're seen as thugs who invade nations without provocation and torture our prisoners and deny them basic human rights.

As an aside after WW2 Japanese guards who waterboarded US POWs were tried as war criminals.

[Stitch]

Excellent! So we should start doing what the East that you despise so much does?

[TotallyBr00tal]

Originally Posted by Jongpil Yun

Many of them were deists. Many at times espoused what amounted to atheistic views, but at the time, it was common practice to ally yourself with the church regardless of whether you believed it or not. Look at how many people today claim to be Christian but probably don't even give a damn or go to church.



The pledge of allegiance always struck me as the kind of blind patriotism and jingoistic brainwashing that makes it so easy to keep all the trappings of patriotism with none of the substance. IMO, it's something you should do once, at 18+. Think of how much significance it has to the majority of people. Hell, think of how many people think it's "invisible, under god". You want to show you love your country? Do what's best for it, instead of buying magnetic ribbons to throw on your car and hanging a 20 foot flag. Educate yourself and vote.



Oh forgive his fascist tendencies, Allah, for he knows not what he says.

I think I should elaborate here.

Will the wiretapping shit save lives? Probably. Will torturing people at gitmo to extract information and confessions save lives? Probably. Do I give a damn? No. Freedom, transparency, and liberty are what we stand for. If we abandon those things for the pretense of safety, we have lost what it means to be America.

Okay so basically sit back don't do anything and let our enemies kill us and destroy our country, great grand wonderful, you are the ultimate liberal wacko that is ruining this country.

[Metal Ken]

Originally Posted by TotallyBr00tal

Shaky ground dude the founders of this country were religous and believed in God strongly. As for the Pledge of allegiance being disgusting get out bro, your a disgrace for saying that, this is what I am trying to get at the fact that people do not believe in this country anymore with all these liberal retarded ideas.

You know Thomas Jefferson? the guy who wrote the declaration of independence?
Know what he said about Christianity?

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity."
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

George Washgington?
"We have abundant reason to rejoice that in this Land the light of truth and reason has triumphed over the power of bigotry and superstition ... In this enlightened Age and in this Land of equal liberty it is our boast, that a man's religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the Laws, nor deprive him of the right of attaining and holding the highest Offices that are known in the United States."

Ben franklin?
"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies."

-- Benjamin Franklin

Originally Posted by TotallyBr00tal

As for the wiretapping, you have something to hide bro your planning something. I would rather have wiretapping than go to work one day and have a fuckin plane blow it up, ok bro.

Like henry rollins said:

"So to question authority is to be unpatriotic, unamerican and in league with terrorists worldwide? FUCK YOU!".