[oompa]

just out of curiosity, how come that you can post a direct link to this image in a politics thread, and people rep you:

Originally Posted by Drew

but when i post a picture of equal nakedness, in a thread called "do you also hate the opposite sex", in the off-topics forum, you remove it and neg rep me?

[Jongpil Yun]

Originally Posted by Vegetta

I think a lot of the economical problems were are having now are a result of some of the trade practices started by Clinton.... Nafta is going to bone us - look at how many plants are closing now and moving to Mexico... Not to mention His under the table dealings with China (Satellite tech for $$ its hard to tell what else went on...)

Some conservative you are. If it weren't for all our BS government subsidies propping up dying industries, the US would be in a lot better shape, and NAFTA would have helped. I'm sure you've heard of the term comparative advantage, right? The US is long past the point of being an industrial exporter. Quite simply, US made goods are too expensive for other people to buy (even with the precipitous drop in the dollar recently) because our standard of living and wages are that of a post-industrial economy.

You people act like Bush is the only president to ever pander to special interest groups, practice cronyism and deceive the public...he's not. Both the dems and the republicans are as culpable in this. I think GW is just too stupid to cover his tracks.

He has done all those things much more than anyone else in recent history. Besides, is that even an argument for Bush? If you think he's too stupid to cover his tracks, you're way the fuck off. Bush is not stupid, not by a long shot.

Do I think Bush is a great president, no not really. Actually I would not call him a good president either but IMO he is not the worst president ever. That distinction belongs solely to Jimmy Carter.

Joking? Compared to Andrew Johnson's disastrous handling of the reconstruction that led him to be the first president to be impeached? After Pierce and Fillmore's role in the secession? Hoover's handling of the Great Depression? Carter was a terrible president, but no where near the worst.

Yes you can argue that he had Ford/Nixon's mess to clean up and did manage to bring peace between Egypt and Israel but if any of you are old enough to actually remember how bad things were in the mid - late 70's - to have actually lived through that period of time I think you might understand where I am coming from: Gas Shortages, inflation,

See previous.

the worst winter in 200 years (Global warming my ass)

OK Mr. Climatologist.

the death of the US auto industry, Death of the US Steel Industry

How in the hell is it Carter's fault that the US simply ceased to be competitive?

Three mile Island.

Carter caused Three Mile Island? ...yeah OK.

What country deserves help? What country doesnt? What is right or what is right for us? I don't know... I'm just a guy out to get by from day to day not solve the worlds problems.

The question is not what country deserves help (they all do), but rather, why are we supposed to be the world's policeman?

Do I think the US is perfect? - hell no! I do think it is the best place to be and it offers it's people more than any other country (even more than those countries that have free health care).

Norway, Sweden, Canada?

I'm not a blindly patriotic. I'm not blindly liberal (tho imo it seems some of you are close to being in this camp at times). I have friends who are are on both extremes. Its like my Poly Sci professor used to say: "If you go far enough to one side you end up being on the other without realizing it."

What? How can you be so for personal freedoms that you become authoritarian?

[Vegetta]

Originally Posted by Jongpil Yun

Some conservative you are. If it weren't for all our BS government subsidies propping up dying industries, the US would be in a lot better shape, and NAFTA would have helped. I'm sure you've heard of the term comparative advantage, right? The US is long past the point of being an industrial exporter. Quite simply, US made goods are too expensive for other people to buy (even with the precipitous drop in the dollar recently) because our standard of living and wages are that of a post-industrial economy.

I said I was a moderate not a conservative - I realize that mismanagement and unions have done more to ruin manufacturing in the US than the government. You think business subsidies are bs That is your right. I think a lot of the social programs funded by the government are BS - they don't really help anyone (enough) and like many charitable organizations use much too large a percentage of their capital on operating costs instead of getting the money to where it will and can do the most good.

He has done all those things much more than anyone else in recent history. Besides, is that even an argument for Bush? If you think he's too stupid to cover his tracks, you're way the fuck off. Bush is not stupid, not by a long shot.

I guess you didn't get that I am not really pro Bush

Joking? Compared to Andrew Johnson's disastrous handling of the reconstruction that led him to be the first president to be impeached? After Pierce and Fillmore's role in the secession? Hoover's handling of the Great Depression? Carter was a terrible president, but no where near the worst.



See previous.

Fair enough

OK Mr. Climatologist.

I don't think global warming is a result of mans impact on the planet. Weather is cyclical there are many periods of prolonged hot and cold.

How in the hell is it Carter's fault that the US simply ceased to be competitive?

He didnt do much to stop it from happening - actually with all of the fucked up things he had to deal with it is a miracle he accomplished anything...

Again, I point the finger more at unions and company mismanagement more than Carter but he certainly did nothing to help the situation.

The area i live in had 2 major industries Steel and Coal. Basically in the 70s it died - The town I grew up in has less than half the population it did when I was a kid. Most towns are just urban blight... victems of the rust belt now and are populated by people to old to move.

Should the government bail out these industries? It is welfare of a sorts but if the companies can manage to turn things around and grow they are actually of more benefit than simple welfare. Should every company be bailed out at Your (and mine) expense? No, I don't think so either but there are other ways to help - tax breaks for example.

Carter caused Three Mile Island? ...yeah OK.

HE didn't cause it lmao it was just one more thing that could have turned out much worse. I probably should not have listed it but it was just one more piece of how much the 70's sucked and i got a bit carried away...

The question is not what country deserves help (they all do), but rather, why are we supposed to be the world's policeman?

That was what i was trying to say - sorry I was not more clear.

Norway, Sweden, Canada?

Pass - I would honestly have no interest in living in any of those countries.

What? How can you be so for personal freedoms that you become authoritarian?

I'm not sure what your getting at here - I simply meant to say that pushed far enough to one side usually(sadly) the outcomes are much the same...violence and death...


I don't know you but I am going to say this - your tone is a little condescending, you jump to conclusions and think I am just another neo-con asshat that doesn't know shit from shine-ola. (I think it was pretty clear I am a moderate but oh well)

I not going to argue with you. I can see the points you are trying to make - just don't be so shocked and angry when someone doesn't see things the way that you do.

[JJ Rodriguez]

Originally Posted by Vegetta

Pass - I would honestly have no interest in living in any of those countries.

What's the matter, can't handle your syrup?

[JBroll]

Originally Posted by TotallyBr00tal

I am not gonna respond with resources and links and all that cause I'll be here all day and this will never end but these are the types of answers I was expecting from a music site considering most musicians are liberal/anti everything so thats cool. This thread just supports my belief that patriotism is dying in this country.

Wow... you're useless. I can't bear to read your posts after this.

I am not a liberal. Anyone here will back that up. But I'm also not a deranged lunatic who refuses to look at root causes of real problems, instead choosing to try applying more of the same solution that not only hasn't ever worked but more often makes the problem WORSE.

I'm amazed that after the insane expansion of government power, the increased lack of accountability, and countless violations of the basic tenets of personal freedom you have the nerve to think about calling yourself in any way conservative. You're not. You're running around spewing patriotism and attacking the one chance the nation has at solving its problems - examining them and trying to find solutions - by blaming them all on the people who actually know what they're talking about and want to make things better through understanding the world around them and making substantial (i.e. NOT "One nation under God") improvements.

People like you make people like me, who actually see value in limiting the power of government and promoting personal freedom, look bad by association because you seem to think you can associate yourself with the 'conservatives' who have actually done *good* things by calling yourself the same thing. At best your type could be called a 'neocon', but even that is an abuse of language. Tell me we'd still have these problems with the rest of the world if we never felt like shoving our noses in the Middle East all the time. Tell me Bush has done a good job of planning the war. Tell me the Republican-controlled Congress a few years back was able to do ANYTHING they claimed to have plans for. Don't get me wrong, I hate the Democrats too, but you need to actually look at what's going on and stop being a partisan tool or you'll just feed into the system that causes the problems you're blaming on everyone who actually reads about the world around them from *real* sources.

Patriotism isn't to be blindly handed out. It is to be earned. It's pride and trust - you wouldn't be proud of a junkheap you pulled out of a used car lot for the cost of a tank of gas, and you wouldn't trust a five-dollar hooker with much more than taking your money. Things you're proud of and put trust in have to earn them. America is earning nobody's trust, and it certainly isn't gaining the pride of those who take off the elementary-school goggles of nationalism and one-sidedness.

Jeff

[garcia3441]

Originally Posted by JBroll

Don't get me wrong, I hate the Democrats too,

[JBroll]

Originally Posted by garcia3441

'I hate politicians' is probably the best way for me to phrase that. They're all two-faced pigs who make any speech they have to when it's time to decide who to vote for... while I was relieved that the GOP lost control of Congress (if nothing else that sort of thing, in principle, should neuter the president - now if only our president had some idea what the Constitution was for) I have yet to see a whole hell of a lot of good come from the shiny happy promises made in the campaign season. The only difference between the parties is in the way they want to screw me over, in my eyes.

Jeff

[garcia3441]

Originally Posted by JBroll

'I hate politicians' is probably the best way for me to phrase that. They're all two-faced pigs who make any speech they have to when it's time to decide who to vote for... while I was relieved that the GOP lost control of Congress (if nothing else that sort of thing, in principle, should neuter the president - now if only our president had some idea what the Constitution was for) I have yet to see a whole hell of a lot of good come from the shiny happy promises made in the campaign season. The only difference between the parties is in the way they want to screw me over, in my eyes.

Jeff

I figured that's what you meant. Unfortunately the election process has devolved from picking the best candidate into picking the least objectionable. And I don't see that changing until the election laws are changed. I think making it a little easier for 3rd parties to get themselves on the ballot. An election where the Republican (or Democratic) presidential candidate finishes behind a 3rd party candidate will hopefully wake these assholes up.

[s7eve]

Originally Posted by JBroll

Stuff

Great post, maybe the first three words were unnecessary but for the rest, well said. +rep

People should question their government, they are elected representatives, they are only human not gods to be followed blindly.

Bush =\= US. Blindly supporting everything he does is not patriotic. Fighting for the freedom of the citizens of your country and a better way of life is.

I'm not even American and I know that, some people need to do a history lesson and learn the ideals that the US was built upon.

America was the greatest country in the world, I and people the world over looked at her with admiration and respect, in my youth I dreamed of one day living there. This can not be said of the US anymore.

If anyone claims to be patriotic they can not support those who are harming that great nation.

Fight for your country, don't fight for Bush.

[Jongpil Yun]

Originally Posted by Vegetta

I said I was a moderate not a conservative - I realize that mismanagement and unions have done more to ruin manufacturing in the US than the government. You think business subsidies are bs That is your right. I think a lot of the social programs funded by the government are BS - they don't really help anyone (enough) and like many charitable organizations use much too large a percentage of their capital on operating costs instead of getting the money to where it will and can do the most good.

Mismanagement, maybe, but the fact of the matter is, with our dollar climbing, wages increasing, and the industrialization of other countries, the US steel & auto industries were poised on the brink of failure anyways.

I'm not sure where your hatred of unions comes from -- they're a legitimate free-market tactic to give the labor force as a whole bargaining power. Obviously their old mafia ties and the like are bullshit, but those came about as a response to all the violence against them.

Are a lot of the social programs funded by the government inefficient? Probably. Free market pressures lead to the highest efficiency, and government programs are usually not subject to free market pressures. But I have to profess ignorance on the topic, because quite frankly, I have no idea what the hell to do about the problem, and I don't want to speak about something I know very little about.

I guess you didn't get that I am not really pro Bush

IMO considering Bush to be better than Carter as a president counts as being pro-Bush in the face of his monumental failures.

I don't think global warming is a result of mans impact on the planet. Weather is cyclical there are many periods of prolonged hot and cold.

I don't know shit about climatology. I'm willing to bet you don't know shit about it either. I think the appropriate response in the face of personal ignorance is to accept scientific consensus. I personally have no right to have an opinion on climate change. My "opinion" is simply the tacit acceptance of the peer-reviewed literature cited by the leading climatologists evidencing human involvement in global warming.

He didnt do much to stop it from happening - actually with all of the fucked up things he had to deal with it is a miracle he accomplished anything...

The problem with Carter is that he was simply inept. He was elected on populist, ethos, I'm-an-everyman rhetoric just like Bush was, and in both cases, it led to the wrong person being chosen for the job.

Again, I point the finger more at unions and company mismanagement more than Carter but he certainly did nothing to help the situation.

Once again, I have the same opinion on the collapse of those industries in the 70s as I have on today's sub prime mortgage crisis. The government should not subsidize bad practice. It's their duty to provide welfare and education so that the affected people can move on, but they should not be propping up agriculture and industry the way they are.

The area i live in had 2 major industries Steel and Coal. Basically in the 70s it died - The town I grew up in has less than half the population it did when I was a kid. Most towns are just urban blight... victems of the rust belt now and are populated by people to old to move.

Maybe that's where your reluctance about global warming comes from. The people you're talking about are victims of a paradigm shift, not Carter. The same sort of thing happened in the Industrial Revolution.

Should the government bail out these industries? It is welfare of a sorts but if the companies can manage to turn things around and grow they are actually of more benefit than simple welfare. Should every company be bailed out at Your (and mine) expense? No, I don't think so either but there are other ways to help - tax breaks for example.

And once again I have to respectfully disagree. It's up to market forces to allocate resources and capital -- financial, natural, and human.

Pass - I would honestly have no interest in living in any of those countries.

I practically live in Canada anyways (Seattle is close enough) but I'm referring to objective measures of quality of life, like life expectancy.

I don't know you but I am going to say this - your tone is a little condescending, you jump to conclusions and think I am just another neo-con asshat that doesn't know shit from shine-ola. (I think it was pretty clear I am a moderate but oh well)

Well, to be fair, you came in and tried to push a discussion about Bush's legacy into one about Carter's, which annoys the hell out of me because it's something I see all the time. I'll be talking about Bush and the true believer Republicans will always move the discussion to Clinton. I could give a damn about Clinton, I didn't vote for him, I'm talking about Bush.

I not going to argue with you. I can see the points you are trying to make - just don't be so shocked and angry when someone doesn't see things the way that you do.

I'm neither shocked nor angry -- most people probably disagree with me on most things. The only things that provoked any emotion in me other than the Three Mile Island thing (which made me smile) is the above and your quip about global warming. To be honest, this is why I generally prefer arguing in a completely anonymous *chan like setting, because otherwise, people always seem to think I'm attacking them personally. I'm not. Except for the thread starter. I am attacking him personally. He's ignoring everything said to him, which is intellectually lazy.