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Unread 06-06-2007, 10:27 AM   #26
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In so far as making smoking illegal, I would never want that to happen. I don't smoke and I'm not fond of having someone smoke when I'm trapped in aroom or in a car with them. That being said making it illegal is just paternalism and I have no use for that. If someo wants to smoke I don't give a shit. If anything we need to legalize more things, like marijuana, not make more things illegal and give the feds more reasons to put people in jail.
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Unread 06-06-2007, 10:27 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
If smoking is illegal, then alcohol should be as well by that logic.
How do you figure? Smoking can cause harm to others simply by the action of consuming the substance. Drinking can only cause harm to the person who's drinking the alcohol - there's no such thing as "second hand alcoholism" - or if there is, it involves exchanging bodily fluids in ways I don't want to think about.

The *only* reason I get behind smoking bans is because smoking in public places can cause harm to others. I'd be against public marijuana smoking, too, even if it were legal, for the same reasons. Private, hey, it's your business.

I'm not sure where I stand on the outdoor bans, although the logic I use to be in favor of banning smoking in public establishments DOES extend to the "public" outdoors.

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Unread 06-06-2007, 10:34 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eaeolian View Post
How do you figure? Smoking can cause harm to others simply by the action of consuming the substance. Drinking can only cause harm to the person who's drinking the alcohol - there's no such thing as "second hand alcoholism" - or if there is, it involves exchanging bodily fluids in ways I don't want to think about.
Drinking + driving can cause harm to other people. I totally agree with you on all your other points though 100%. Smoking is gross and I wish they could do something to get rid of it.

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Unread 06-06-2007, 10:41 AM   #29
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Drinking + driving can cause harm to other people. I totally agree with you on all your other points though 100%. Smoking is gross and I wish they could do something to get rid of it.
Yeah, but the alcohol is not causing direct harm, the person who's drunk and driving is. That becomes a personal responsibility issue, no different than if I decide to smoke a pack of cigs in my own home, and drive during the resulting coughing fit and injure someone. I was obviously impaired, but the smoking itself wasn't the cause of the injury, my poor judgment was.

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Unread 06-06-2007, 10:53 AM   #30
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^

This is no different than prescription medication that specifically warns the patient to not operate motor vehicles or heavy machinery under the influence of it. The drug is not the problem, just the person who fails to use it responsibly.

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Unread 06-06-2007, 11:09 AM   #31
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Nah I totally get that, I'm just saying since you said specifically "Drinking can only cause harm to the person who's drinking the alcohol " that it wasn't 100% true. The bad judgement that some have with alcohol can be harmful as well, but most of them don't normally drive 65 down a backroad into another car.

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Unread 06-06-2007, 11:12 AM   #32
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^^ I agree with this last series of posts.

On the point of responsiblity, and the user in question.

Some people use hallucinogenic (sp??) drugs and stare at a wall for hours, or paint something, or do something else creative. Some people get all paranoid and kill people.

Passing laws to make the public environment more enjoyable for all is nothing new, I.E. Drunk In Public. There is a fine line there though. It can start to feel oppresive.

For me, it's still a matter of debate and discussion, I am for "drunk in public" style laws, and I guess it would be hippocritical for me to be fully against "smoking in public" laws.

Still, I am strongly against outright bans, just as I am against the war on drugs.
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Unread 06-06-2007, 11:13 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eaeolian View Post
I'm not sure where I stand on the outdoor bans, although the logic I use to be in favor of banning smoking in public establishments DOES extend to the "public" outdoors.
To be honest, for an outdoor ban, it'd make more sense to have a look at the effects of car emissions and general air polution first. If it's about health, then it should be about ALL effects, not just one moral crusade. Basically polution will do more to people's wellbeing outside that one bloke puffing smoke into the air.

Also, even though alcohol has no direct effect, it does cause antisocial behaviour, drink driving, damage, violence and accidents. Health service wise, sclerosis of the liver and other things.

One thing that comes up here is that smokers get lower treatment priority compared to others on the NHS, while some people may say "good", i would like to remind others that in that case fat people should be taxed on food, as I know i've been paying for the NHS here through my income tax AND pretty much every pack of cigarettes I buy, so hence, i have paid more.

hmmm... that kind of went nowhere...

Still, there's a smoking ban coming in here, and whilst i'll grumble about going outside, I'll just spend less on going to clubs, and enjoy the summer sunshine untill i decide in a moment of sanity to quit again.

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Unread 06-06-2007, 11:19 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7 Dying Trees View Post
To be honest, for an outdoor ban, it'd make more sense to have a look at the effects of car emissions and general air polution first. If it's about health, then it should be about ALL effects, not just one moral crusade. Basically polution will do more to people's wellbeing outside that one bloke puffing smoke into the air.

Also, even though alcohol has no direct effect, it does cause antisocial behaviour, drink driving, damage, violence and accidents. Health service wise, sclerosis of the liver and other things.

One thing that comes up here is that smokers get lower treatment priority compared to others on the NHS, while some people may say "good", i would like to remind others that in that case fat people should be taxed on food, as I know i've been paying for the NHS here through my income tax AND pretty much every pack of cigarettes I buy, so hence, i have paid more.

hmmm... that kind of went nowhere...

Still, there's a smoking ban coming in here, and whilst i'll grumble about going outside, I'll just spend less on going to clubs, and enjoy the summer sunshine untill i decide in a moment of sanity to quit again.

Some good points amidst the rambling

A few of my friends have quit smoking recently, I might follow suit, I smoke a pack every like...3 days though, so I'm not as bad as they were, but it's always a good idea. I just have this ".... it" mindset that's very unhealthy...
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Unread 06-06-2007, 12:10 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7 Dying Trees View Post
To be honest, for an outdoor ban, it'd make more sense to have a look at the effects of car emissions and general air polution first. If it's about health, then it should be about ALL effects, not just one moral crusade. Basically polution will do more to people's wellbeing outside that one bloke puffing smoke into the air.
How many times have we all gotten a face full of exhaust from a bus spewing emissions or a car that would clearly fail emissions tests yet is still on the road. The amount of smog and air pollution far outweighs anything public smoking could do. The only times outdoor smoking becomes a real issue is in situations like outside office buildings where all the chain smoking morons congregate and create one huge smoke party. Other than that people walking and smoking is insignificant.



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Unread 06-06-2007, 12:19 PM   #36
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^^ Comparitively speaking. Yes

On the way home yesterday i was behind this bus that was spewing more black smoke than New Jersey, it was nuts, I had to roll up my window
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Unread 06-06-2007, 01:13 PM   #37
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Quote:
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How many times have we all gotten a face full of exhaust from a bus spewing emissions or a car that would clearly fail emissions tests yet is still on the road. The amount of smog and air pollution far outweighs anything public smoking could do. The only times outdoor smoking becomes a real issue is in situations like outside office buildings where all the chain smoking morons congregate and create one huge smoke party. Other than that people walking and smoking is insignificant.
In that case, why don't we just strip the emissions control devices off all vehicles? It's not like they pollute the environment as much as industry. I always thought the "ignore this problem because there is a bigger problem that we're ignoring" argument was stupid.

What you forget is that for every bus you see, there are about 20-40 less cars on the road. Yes, a bus pollutes more, but not 20-40 cars worth. Also, when you see a car that would "clearly fail emissions tests", the owner of that car is breaking the law. Saying that you should be able to subject someone else to your second hand smoke because it isn't as bad as that guy's car is like me saying it is OK for me to rape your sister because it's not as bad as the guy who murdered your brother.

Second hand smoke hurts people. If smokers insist on subjecting non-smokers to second hand smoke, non-smokers should be allowed to randomly punch smokers in the face. I think it's a fair trade.

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Unread 06-06-2007, 01:18 PM   #38
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I always thought the "ignore this problem because there is a bigger problem that we're ignoring" argument was stupid.


FWIW, I'm opposed to making tobacco products illegal. If people want to inhale tobacco smoke, that's their business. They just need to do it in a way such that their actions do not hurt anyone around them, and if that means doing it in the privacy of their homes, or exhaling into some sort of a filtration device or whatever, then so be it.

It's not my business if someone else smokes, but it IS my business that I don't want to have to inhale their fumes.

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Unread 06-06-2007, 01:22 PM   #39
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I'm right there with you, Drew. I absolutely do not support the idea of protecting people from themselves by force of law. I don't care if you shoot heroin into your eyeball, as long as it doesn't effect me.

Existing laws would do an excellent job of enforcing this principal. Smoke crack and drive a car? That's driving under the influence. Hot someone with the car? Vehicular assault or manslaughter. Spend all your money on drugs so you can't feed your kid? Child neglect and abuse. You want to slowly poison yourself to death, without harming others? Here, let me pack your crack pipe for you, sir, because I believe evolution works best with a little gene pool cleansing.

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Unread 06-06-2007, 01:30 PM   #40
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I don't care if you shoot heroin into your eyeball

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Unread 06-06-2007, 01:36 PM   #41
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BTW, noodles did you steal that from Bill Hicks "When I left prison I would be mainlining herion through my eyeball"
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Unread 06-06-2007, 02:09 PM   #42
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Actually, I think I got it from a Dennis Miller rant on victimless crime.

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Unread 06-06-2007, 02:19 PM   #43
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Actually, I think I got it from a Dennis Miller rant on victimless crime.
...ah Dennis Miiller. I miss Dennis Miller.

"I don't want to go off on a rant here...." = intro to extreme hilarity.


FWIW, I actually really do hope they eventually ban smoking. It's a bad habit, everyone knows it, and I think even smoking will whisper silent "thank you's" once the ban is passed, and they get used to the concept of freer breathing. I just don't want it to turn into the prologue of "Let's Bury Other American Freedom's" theatre, nor do I want Prohibition 2017 (the video game in stores now.... ), if we can avoid that, then I'm cool. Given our track record as a country recently though, I think I have cause to worry.
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Unread 06-06-2007, 02:20 PM   #44
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Interesting, I don't know who Dennis Miller is.
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Unread 06-06-2007, 02:25 PM   #45
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...ah Dennis Miiller. I miss Dennis Miller.

"I don't want to go off on a rant here...." = intro to extreme hilarity.
I loved Dennis before 9/11, although his stint on "Monday Night Football" was one of the worst things in the history of modern television. Afterward, when he became a fear-mongering right-wing shill, I was less enamored with him.

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Unread 06-06-2007, 02:27 PM   #46
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I loved Dennis before 9/11, although his stint on "Monday Night Football" was one of the worst things in the history of modern television. Afterward, when he became a fear-mongering right-wing shill, I was less enamored with him.
No wonder I don't know of him...
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Unread 06-06-2007, 02:57 PM   #47
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prohibition will not work. That is a known fact. Didn't work in the early part of the 20th century, you can still buy weed on the streets, so prohibition works. Keeping shit legal helps controlling it, and with tax money the government can sponsor lung/throat cancer research.
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Unread 06-06-2007, 03:01 PM   #48
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Unread 06-07-2007, 09:36 AM   #49
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Saying that you should be able to subject someone else to your second hand smoke because it isn't as bad as that guy's car is like me saying it is OK for me to rape your sister because it's not as bad as the guy who murdered your brother.
Pardon me but what are you going on about?? I never said anyone should ignore problems cause there are larger ones. I think you're letting your feelings get to you, maybe as your mood is always set to angry, and are missing the point. Banning smoking outdoors is plain wrong. I can't recall within the past few months ever being totally disturbed by someone passing by on the street smoking. I have however had many instances of bad vehicle pollution into my face. What would I rather have? Well, the smoker. Either way I'm not saying get rid of vehicles or that buses are bad. I didn't say anything like that. Actually I even stated "car that would clearly fail emissions tests yet is still on the road". Sure a car owner is breaking the law but I've never once seen a car spewing black smoke be pulled over.

I don't know what you think I meant by my post but what I meant is there are far worse things polluting the air that to target smoking for an outdoor smoking ban for the publics health is silly.

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Unread 06-07-2007, 09:56 AM   #50
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I never said anyone should ignore problems cause there are larger ones.



I don't know what you think I meant by my post but what I meant is there are far worse things polluting the air that to target smoking for an outdoor smoking ban for the publics health is silly.
No time to really go into it - shitty day at work - but in essence you ARE advocating ignoring out-of-doors secondhand smoke because it's a leser issue than, say, car pollution.

That's sort of like Bush's stance on global warming - "We're not going to do anything because the chinese aren't doing anything yet, and we don't think t's fair." Yeah, but the world ain't getting colder, exactly...

"...and everything under the sun is in tune, but the sun is eclipsed by the moon."

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