This is why I can't stomach the Iraq War

[ohio_eric]

The problem is when most people join the military I'm not sold that they are totally aware of the risks, especially people who join the National Guard and reserves.

Lots of people join for college money or job training. When you consider how expensive college is I can fully understand why some people would join the military when their options are limited because of circumstances. I really don't think that everyone joined the military thinking they could maimed or disfigured or killed. I've seen military recruiters in high schools and it's unsettling. They show movies that make the military look like some movie or even have video games for the kids to play. Somehow I don't think PTSD and missing limbs and death are brought up that much.

Now in the aftermath of 9/11 many people signed up to defend us from terrorists and to avenge 9/11. What they didn't sign up to do was go fight in some illegal and immoral war in Iraq at the whim of those two incompotent and morally bankrupt sacks of monkey shit, Bush and Cheney. They signed up to defend this nation not serve as thugs for a bunch of power mad chicken hawks.

If I was the guy in this story I'd would be irate. I would reign down on the VA and Bush with the wrath of a million angry gods. He should be pissed. He got sent to a war that never should have been fought and now he's not only scarred for life but the government doesn't even give a shit! This government has even cut veteran's benefits while constantly asking for billions more for this war from Congress. It's a disgrace that the people who actually fought this war suffer while greedy war profiteering scumbags, like Black Water and Haliburton, get fat off of this shameful war.

[JBroll]

People didn't join the Guard to go get blown up. They didn't join to have the contract terms they agreed to be completely torn to shreds. They didn't ask to be completely underequipped and asked to face things they weren't prepared for. To some extent, I agree with you, but... not quite.

The average person gets as good an impression about the military from what the military says as a child gets an impression about 'true love' from watching Disney movies.

Jeff

[lordofthesewers]

Originally Posted by ohio_eric

The problem is when most people join the military I'm not sold that they are totally aware of the risks, especially people who join the National Guard and reserves.

their problem, they are ignorant ones.

Originally Posted by ohio_eric

Lots of people join for college money or job training. When you consider how expensive college is I can fully understand why some people would join the military when their options are limited because of circumstances. I really don't think that everyone joined the military thinking they could maimed or disfigured or killed. I've seen military recruiters in high schools and it's unsettling. They show movies that make the military look like some movie or even have video games for the kids to play. Somehow I don't think PTSD and missing limbs and death are brought up that much.

I've seen military recruitments in my school. However, people should double check the stories of the recruiters by simply watching the news and asking on the internet of friends how it is like to be in the military. Again, if they are ignorant enough to trust recruiters, it is their problem.
There is always the option of delivering pizza all night long and going to college. In that context you sacrifice life for 4 years to get a diploma without risking getting blown up. The military in this case is the easier way out. I think it is good that the military has commercials and video games to get people interested not force them into pursuing a military career. America needs more ground forces anyway.

Originally Posted by ohio_eric

Now in the aftermath of 9/11 many people signed up to defend us from terrorists and to avenge 9/11. What they didn't sign up to do was go fight in some illegal and immoral war in Iraq at the whim of those two incompotent and morally bankrupt sacks of monkey shit, Bush and Cheney. They signed up to defend this nation not serve as thugs for a bunch of power mad chicken hawks.

that is totally subjective and biased
The military gets its power from the discipline of its members. If you are a soldier you obey whatever order you get from the top or you get court martialed. That means if you are ordered to invade Iraq for WHATEVER reason it is your duty as a soldier to do it. Yes, the war is immoral, but once you join the army you join to fight ALL wars, not the moral ones. Then, who is the one to judge what is moral and what is not. Me? You? bush? mormons? liberals? gimme a break!

Originally Posted by JBroll

The average person gets as good an impression about the military from what the military says as a child gets an impression about 'true love' from watching Disney movies.
Jeff

their ignorance is not my problem or the military's or bush's

[JBroll]

Originally Posted by lordofthesewers

their problem, they are ignorant ones.
...
their ignorance is not my problem or the military's or bush's

Right, because there are so many places where one can have one's face melted off, and so many situations where people find out firsthand how they get to go through several more tours than they signed on for because their bosses screwed up too much to replace them. I'll agree that they shouldn't have quite as rosy a picture as the recruiters would want them to have... but there's only so much screwing around at the top (like not equipping soldiers, or adhering to their end of the contract) that can be justified.

By the way, as an SS.org member, you are required to spend three years as a sex slave in JJ's basement.

...

Oh, wait, did we say three years? Those are Saturnian years - have fun.

Jeff

[lordofthesewers]

Originally Posted by JBroll

Right, because there are so many places where one can have one's face melted off, and so many situations where people find out firsthand how they get to go through several more tours than they signed on for because their bosses screwed up too much to replace them. I'll agree that they shouldn't have quite as rosy a picture as the recruiters would want them to have... but there's only so much screwing around at the top (like not equipping soldiers, or adhering to their end of the contract) that can be justified.

I agree that bush screwed up when he didn't equip them with the necessary equipment and the way too long tours of duty, that is not what I have been trying to get across. Also I think starting the war was a shitty idea, but now the war is started, and pulling out right now will be much worse than staying there. But this is a whole different discussion.

Originally Posted by JBroll

By the way, as an SS.org member, you are required to spend three years as a sex slave in JJ's basement.

...

Oh, wait, did we say three years? Those are Saturnian years - have fun.

Jeff

is it wrong if I enjoy my stay in JJ's basement?

[Zepp88]

Originally Posted by JBroll

Right, because there are so many places where one can have one's face melted off, and so many situations where people find out firsthand how they get to go through several more tours than they signed on for because their bosses screwed up too much to replace them. I'll agree that they shouldn't have quite as rosy a picture as the recruiters would want them to have... but there's only so much screwing around at the top (like not equipping soldiers, or adhering to their end of the contract) that can be justified.

By the way, as an SS.org member, you are required to spend three years as a sex slave in JJ's basement.

...

Oh, wait, did we say three years? Those are Saturnian years - have fun.

Jeff

A lot of your posts used to bug me...but I rather like you lately Nice sense of rationale.

[JBroll]

Originally Posted by lordofthesewers

Also I think starting the war was a shitty idea, but now the war is started, and pulling out right now will be much worse than staying there. But this is a whole different discussion.

I don't even want to know how that makes sense... it'll be a mess whenever we pull out, the only question is how many more people have to die before we see that there's no other way out.

Originally Posted by lordofthesewers

is it wrong if I enjoy my stay in JJ's basement?

Yes.

Keep in mind that this is coming from someone whose statement of 'I like violent sex' means 'I like lots of violence, with a little sex thrown in just to make it not wholly domestic abuse'. Someone who was aroused more by North Korea's nuke test than by any porn he has seen recently. Someone whose idea of safe sex involves not condoms but fire extinguishers.

Yes, there is something wrong with enjoying anything involving being JJ's sex slave.

Originally Posted by Zepp88

A lot of your posts used to bug me...but I rather like you lately Nice sense of rationale.

I may be a misanthropic, cynical, market anarchist bastard, but I'm not insane enough to think Bush is doing a good job.

Jeff

[lordofthesewers]

Originally Posted by JBroll

I don't even want to know how that makes sense... it'll be a mess whenever we pull out, the only question is how many more people have to die before we see that there's no other way out.


Jeff

in my opinion, continuing on the current course of war seems to be working. Civilian deaths are down, troop casualties are down for 2 consecutive months. Some regions of Iraq are slowly returning to normal. Read the news. Patreus is not a retard, he has a phd and a degree from princeton if i'm not mistaken. Once you get the agitators to violence in iraq out and you provide the citizens with some sense of security, they will stop attacking themselves and won't create chaos if you leave.

[JBroll]

The point is that the agitators aren't going anywhere with all of the anti-West sentiment going around... being involved over there in the first place was the mistake that caused all of this mess to fall in our lap, and continuing to stick our noses around and play world police is about as helpful as pissing on a bonfire.

Jeff

[garcia3441]

Originally Posted by lordofthesewers

Read the news.

Experts Doubt Drop In Violence in Iraq - washingtonpost.com

"If a bullet went through the back of the head, it's sectarian," the official said. "If it went through the front, it's criminal."

Attacks by U.S.-allied Sunni tribesmen -- recruited to battle Iraqis allied with al-Qaeda -- are also excluded from the U.S. military's calculation of violence levels.

[guitarplayerone]

Originally Posted by ohio_eric

When you consider how expensive college is I can fully understand why some people would join the military when their options are limited because of circumstances.

But of course, if we had free college, how would the millitary recruit anyone?
It is also ironic that there are recruiters at my community college, which has a high dropout rating.

[lordofthesewers]

Originally Posted by guitarplayerone

But of course, if we had free college, how would the millitary recruit anyone?
It is also ironic that there are recruiters at my community college, which has a high dropout rating.

well, if those people that drop out don't want to end up blown up in iraq they can always study hard, and not have to go to the military

[Aaron]

Originally Posted by lordofthesewers

well, if those people that drop out don't want to end up blown up in iraq they can always study hard, and not have to go to the military

Ive been active duty military for 4.5 years and never heard a gunshot. It doesent sound like youve served any time in any branch of the military, and here you are posting away like you no exactly what your talking about, you should go get some education before you run your mouth.

Originally Posted by Aaron

Ive been active duty military for 4.5 years and never heard a gunshot. It doesent sound like youve served any time in any branch of the military, and here you are posting away like you no exactly what your talking about, you should go get some education before you run your mouth.

American Deaths
Since war began (3/19/03): 3871
Since "Mission Accomplished" (5/1/03) (the list) 3732
Since Capture of Saddam (12/13/03): 3410
Since Handover (6/29/04): 3012
Since Election (1/31/05): 2434

Total Wounded: 28489

I would say that somebody have heard a gunshot.

[JBroll]

Originally Posted by guitarplayerone

But of course, if we had free college, how would the millitary recruit anyone?

The problem is that when we have education become available to everyone for free, it's not enough. High school diplomas don't mean shit anymore. Hell, Bachelor's degrees don't even mean a whole hell of a lot anymore. Don't get me wrong - I'm about as pro-education as anyone can get - but if everyone can get their Bachelor's, people will need to get Master's degrees and up to get noticed even more than now.

Jeff

[lordofthesewers]

I also like how i got neg repped for expressing my opinion, given that opinion is slightly different than most of people here.

[JBroll]

Paul... get the .... used to it. It happens. This is coming from the guy who has attacked Mother Teresa, defended the FAIR tax and Friedman's economic theories, argued socialized medicine... la la la... shit happens.

On top of the simple fact that this is the Internet and weird shit happens, you haven't really sourced all of your arguments well or stated them in a way that came across as being very productive.

Back to the point.

Jeff

[guitarplayerone]

Originally Posted by lordofthesewers

I also like how i got neg repped for expressing my opinion, given that opinion is slightly different than most of people here.

You get negative rep for being ignorant and not backing your opinion up in a logical way.

Originally Posted by JBroll

people will need to get Master's degrees and up to get noticed even more than now

High-school diplomas havent meant anything since we have switched our economy from producing to service-based. They only meant anything when you could make good money working an assembly line somewhere. This was during the 1950's, and before.

A system that relies on everyone having the opprotunity to recieve a higher education works very well in Scandinavia, for example, simply resulting in people actually needing to 'do shit' to get paid for it. This is why their educational system is better- because it needs to be, because most people are expected to become college students, which is the opposite of what we have in the US. This is why more scientists come from there, and most countries that have the highest percentage of scientists also have socialized college education. I am busting my ass right now to pay for school through a mixture of work and bills. If something were to happen where I drop out for seven months, and can no longer defer loan payments, you are telling me it is fair that I should be forced to live in at best low-middle class conditions for the rest of my life?

I do not see the overall impact on society as being negative, we just result in being less lazy. This might also close the huge gap between the upper-class and middle-class, because many more people would be getting paid decently.
Additionally, if the citizens of this country were doing better, then they would be much more competitive on the job market with immigrants from other countries. I myself am an immigrant, I was born in the USSR (while it was still the USSR), but when you look around at doctors and surgeons, you find that many of them come from other countries and take an equivelancy test. So this might affect their opprotunity to get jobs, but in the end would motivate society to get past the whole 'theyre takin ur jeebs' thing (as far as real jobs are concerned), and actually prepare our constituents to be genuinely competitive and earn their jobs, as opposed to recieving them because there is a 'lack of' whatever profession they need to go into. Case in point- huge influx of incompetant B-grade nurses who got their jobs a few years ago when the job market really needed them. In a society where everyone goes to college, they would have needed to actually study to recieve their positions.

Higher-paying jobs require more schooling, so this still wouldnt result in say, a doctor making the same amount or a negligible difference from a PA, or some other healthcare professional. I refer to healthcare a lot because I am studying it in college, and my parents are both veterans of the field.

I get where you are coming from, but your logic is based on essentially the continuation of a system where individuals with the means to afford a college education are favored over those who cannot. This specifically ....s up the low-middle class people, because we dont qualify for any federal aid. And even the people who do, cannot use it to pay in full the tuition from anything besides a community college. This is a very large skew favoring the upwards expansion of the middle class, and severely handicaps the lower middle- class from ever doing too much better than their parents. This creates a permanant underclassed group of people in our society, and can be compared to many historic occurences.

Further continuation of this rant, and an expansion into the origional topic.

Picture a United States with a socialized college education system. In this system, everyone can afford to go to college, so only individuals who are actually dedicated to the war effort sign up, as opposed to all my lower-middle class friends that had no other choice. There would have been no frivolous war in the first place, because there wouldnt have been enough of a millitary to even consider it. Moreover, the 'masses' would have been more educated in the first place, and whatever anyone else says, level of education has statistically been proven to affect voting decisions. My buddies wouldnt have been getting shot at while Cheney makes money off his Halliburton stock options.

As far as competition goes, consider this a metaphor to the 'cost- plus' pay, monopolized contracts that they are recieving from our government. In a society that was used to, and welcomed competition, we would immediately be skeptical of this on a national level, instead of continously being ....ed in the ass like we are now (due mostly to uneducated people that continue to thrive in a society where an education, to at least some degree, is still optional)

[JBroll]

Originally Posted by guitarplayerone

A system that relies on everyone having the opprotunity to recieve a higher education works very well in Scandinavia, for example, simply resulting in people actually needing to 'do shit' to get paid for it. This is why their educational system is better- because it needs to be, because most people are expected to become college students, which is the opposite of what we have in the US. This is why more scientists come from there, and most countries that have the highest percentage of scientists also have socialized college education. I am busting my ass right now to pay for school through a mixture of work and bills. If something were to happen where I drop out for seven months, and can no longer defer loan payments, you are telling me it is fair that I should be forced to live in at best low-middle class conditions for the rest of my life?

I don't think I've said that anywhere. What I've said is that college degrees as investments are showing less gain. Try getting much of anything done with a Bachelor's in the sciences - your best bet for anything involving research will be as an assistant to a professor who spent the better part of a decade, if not more, on graduate and post-graduate studies alone. I've gotten a slightly different impression of what expectations are placed on students (between student teaching, tutoring, and looking into the subject) - everyone is expected to go to college... but people aren't always expected to be *useful*.

Originally Posted by guitarplayerone

Higher-paying jobs require more schooling, so this still wouldnt result in say, a doctor making the same amount or a negligible difference from a PA, or some other healthcare professional. I refer to healthcare a lot because I am studying it in college, and my parents are both veterans of the field.

True, but more schooling does not yield higher-paying jobs. Just talk to philosophy students.

Originally Posted by guitarplayerone

I get where you are coming from, but your logic is based on essentially the continuation of a system where individuals with the means to afford a college education are favored over those who cannot.

No, my logic is based on the fact that being available more yields lower demand. I think you've just misunderstood my point - I'm not going to say that people shouldn't be educated (I'd sooner say that there was a risk of starving to death from eating too much) but I've noticed a very distinct expectation that everyone is to go to college, and as a result people do get degrees but fail to actually get degrees that will serve any purpose other than to sit on walls and pretend to be relevant. I'm at a school that was chartered to serve lower and lower-middle class people who traditionally didn't go to college, and one that is seeing very clearly that when people are expected to go to college, regardless of ability or motivation or even knowing what they want to do with their lives and what they need to get there, they tend to get their degrees and proceed to do nothing with them. We wind up flooded with people studying things from business to ancient Chinese fatalist philosophy and finding that their market is already too flooded (if it even exists) - my school is also in the same city as a fairly prestigious medical center, so there are literally thousands studying biology to go to med school and finding that there are already so many people in biology that they stand very little chance of actually getting accepted. It comes down to supply-and-demand in the end - I'm not going to say that I wouldn't be much happier if everyone not only had but took the chance to get educated well, but if everyone has Bachelor's degrees they'll become the next high school diplomas - I don't think that will alleviate the need for some people to go into the military.

I also think that there are much better ways of preventing war - this army is underequipped and having trouble recruiting people, but that isn't stopping the guys in charge from continuing it.

Jeff

[Stitch]

What a sad story.

Paul, stop being a douche.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by Stitch

What a sad story.

Paul, stop being a douche.

He is 17 you expect much more?

[guitarplayerone]

Originally Posted by JBroll

but I've noticed a very distinct expectation that everyone is to go to college, and as a result people do get degrees but fail to actually get degrees that will serve any purpose other than to sit on walls and pretend to be relevant.

I did misunderstand.

I feel bad for my music major buddies (doing a minor)

[JBroll]

Yeah, I know a guy who's majoring in music comp so that he can make video game soundtracks.

Jeff

[lordofthesewers]

ABC News: A Quiet Iraq? Attacks Down 55 Percent
discuss. 55% lower violence is progress.

[JBroll]

Originally Posted by lordofthesewers

ABC News: A Quiet Iraq? Attacks Down 55 Percent
discuss. 55% lower violence is progress.

Did you just not read the link to the Washington Post article above?

Jeff